penalty or take-out?

[cnszsun]

1m - pass - 1nt - pass

pass- dbl

 

How do people play double here?

[mike777]

1m  - pass - 1nt - pass

pass- dbl

 

How do people play double here?

I play modified DONT the same as if opp open a strong nt.

 

x=long minor or both majors.

2c=clubs and other

2d=d and higher

2h=h

2s=s

[NickRW]

Yeah - whatever you use to defend a strong NT seems a good default position to take.

[cnszsun]

1m  - pass - 1nt - pass

pass- dbl

 

How do people play double here?

I play modified DONT the same as if opp open a strong nt.

 

x=long minor or both majors.

2c=clubs and other

2d=d and higher

2h=h

2s=s

It seems you misread the auction. You are 2nd seat, and passed rho's one level minor opening.

[han]

Penalty, been discussed before.

[mike777]

1m  - pass - 1nt - pass

pass- dbl

 

How do people play double here?

I play modified DONT the same as if opp open a strong nt.

 

x=long minor or both majors.

2c=clubs and other

2d=d and higher

2h=h

2s=s

It seems you misread the auction. You are 2nd seat, and passed rho's one level minor opening.

I understand I play modified Dont here..not penalty. :)

 

 

 

1c=p=1nt=p

p=?

 

x is long minor or both majors not penalty..

2c=clubs and other...etc.

[inquiry]

I'm old and I'm simple. This is an original trap pass and is penalty.

 

I got the other minor? I bid it...

 

I got the majors and too weak to take action over 1m (michaels or cue)? I cue-bid their suit now. I got just one long major and want to bid now? I bid it.

 

If I have a major and a minor? I take my chances with one or the other if i just have to bid.

 

If i have the trap pass hand? I wack it.

[peachy]

Without any agreements covering this auction, it is penalty (holding opener's suit and a full opener or more)

[awm]

I play this as something like a good 13 or more points balanced or semi-balanced with a strong holding in opener's minor.

 

This is similar, but slightly different, from the "penalty" meaning that others have suggested. My approach helps a lot when partner has a five-card suit but was too weak to bid it at first turn (you get to a reasonable contract) and also lets you "get them" on a fair proportion of hands when partner holds decent cards. Holding a true "penalty double" is pretty rare because if we have that many cards in opener's minor usually responder can find a four-card major in his hand.

[Hanoi5]

I'd play for penalty unless something else has been discussed.

[P_Marlowe]

reopening t/o.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ulven]

I used to play penalty, but I like it the Arnim-Auken agreement: 2-way, either penalty or T/O. You'll be pretty sure to figure out which one it is on this auction.

[pclayton]

1m  - pass - 1nt - pass

pass- dbl

 

How do people play double here?

I play modified DONT the same as if opp open a strong nt.

 

x=long minor or both majors.

2c=clubs and other

2d=d and higher

2h=h

2s=s

Better to play a penalty x along with regular DONT. No need to show both majors.

[NickRW]

I am surprised that this was "discussed" before and the consensus was that by default this should be "penalty". Certainly the way I play, the set of hands that couldn't overcall initially, couldn't overcall 1N either and couldn't make a t/o but which now thinks it has a "penalty double" - well I'm having trouble thinking of such a hand.

 

Playing it as something just short of a penalty double with a little something in opener's suit that couldn't find a suitable overcall - basically as someone suggested above - and which partner can take out or convert to penalties - well now at least we have a meaning for the bid that actually exists as far as I'm concerned.

 

Nick

[ArtK78]

I don't see what is so surprising. The consensus was that this double announces the fact that the doubler had a penalty double of the first bid suit.

 

That is certainly the traditional meaning of this double.

 

Whether it is the best meaning of this double is an issue open to debate.

[NickRW]

I don't see what is so surprising. The consensus was that this double announces the fact that the doubler had a penalty double of the first bid suit.

 

That is certainly the traditional meaning of this double.

 

Whether it is the best meaning of this double is an issue open to debate.

1. We are not now doubling the original suit for penalty but 1N

 

2. Nobody that I know of plays penalty doubles of ordinary 1 level suit bids - only penalty passes. This an undefined hand type to me.

 

Nick

[rogerclee]

I don't see what is so surprising.  The consensus was that this double announces the fact that the doubler had a penalty double of the first bid suit.

 

That is certainly the traditional meaning of this double.

 

Whether it is the best meaning of this double is an issue open to debate.

1. We are not now doubling the original suit for penalty but 1N

 

2. Nobody that I know of plays penalty doubles of ordinary 1 level suit bids - only penalty passes. This an undefined hand type to me.

 

Nick

LOL

[jdaming]

There are plenty of times when your side holds the balance of points (even somtimes that you don't) that wacking a 1 level bid especially vul can be VERY profitable. I am not advocating that we always use penalty double rather that there are plenty of legitimate hands where penalty is the right thing to do and does not seem to be very many hands that need double to describe them properly in this auction

[ArtK78]

I don't see what is so surprising.  The consensus was that this double announces the fact that the doubler had a penalty double of the first bid suit.

 

That is certainly the traditional meaning of this double.

 

Whether it is the best meaning of this double is an issue open to debate.

1. We are not now doubling the original suit for penalty but 1N

 

2. Nobody that I know of plays penalty doubles of ordinary 1 level suit bids - only penalty passes. This an undefined hand type to me.

 

Nick

Nick:

 

Suppose you, sitting in second seat, hold:

 

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=saxhkxdaqjtxxcxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

And the auction goes:

 

(1♦) - P - (P) - Dbl

(P) - ?

 

This is a classic penalty pass.

 

However, suppose instead of passing, your LHO bids 1NT:

 

(1♦) - P - (1NT) - P

(P) - ?

 

Partner is not in passout seat, so he won't enter the auction over 1NT with a double unless he has a real takeout double of 1♦. The bidding comes back to you. Don't you think you should double 1NT? That is what the double shows - a hand that would have passed a reopening double of the opening bid if your LHO had passed instead of bidding 1NT.

[awm]

Okay, say you have the given hand of:

 

♠Ax

♥Kx

♦AQJTxx

♣xxx

 

RHO opens 1♦, you pass. First, what do you think the chances are that LHO bids 1NT? Given that you have six diamonds and RHO probably has four, what are the odds that LHO has no four-card major? Even if in fact the auction does go 1♦-P-1NT-P-P to you, there are very good odds that LHO had a long club suit and no way to bid it (most people have no bid for one-suited club hands in the "constructive" range). So doubling will push them from a not-so-hot 1NT contract into a much better club partial, whereas passing might net you a plus score and bidding 2♦ (natural) might shut their clubs out of the auction before they get bid and possibly raised.

 

Frequency-wise, I think it is much more likely that I hold a hand like:

 

♠Axx

♥Kxx

♦AJTx

♣Qxx

 

Not quite good enough for a 1NT overcall of 1♦, but it's still fairly likely that partner has a five-card major (in which case we need to get to 2M, but partner probably couldn't bid it over 1NT on his probable 4-8 hcp). And there are reasonable odds that we have about half the values, and that even if we have a minority of the hcp we will set 1NT because our diamonds (and the majority of our side's values) are behind opener and partner's lead of his four-card major is likely to be a good one.

 

Okay okay, I know the forums plurality likes to double 1♦ for takeout with my 3343 hand but suffice it to say that this is far from a standard action. :rolleyes:

[louisg]

No one has yet suggested what I think is best, namely that it shows values with shortness in the unbid minor (and can stand a lead of opener's minor if partner chooses to defend). IMO, this combines the best features of both the penalty and takeout treatments. Partner can bid a major safely with 4 cards, or pass when the hand is a complete misfit. It is also safer than using it to show the balanced 14 count with values in m, because we are more likely to have a playable landing spot when partner is weak.

 

My prototype for this auction (assuming the opener's suit is diamonds) is something like:

 

Axxx

KJTx

AJTx

x

 

This hand doesn't merit any positive action on the first round, but has lots of potential both offensively and defensively once the opponents subside in 1NT.

[NickRW]

Nick:

 

Suppose you, sitting in second seat, hold:

 

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=saxhkxdaqjtxxcxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

And the auction goes:

 

(1♦) - P - (P) - Dbl

(P) - ?

 

This is a classic penalty pass.

 

However, suppose instead of passing, your LHO bids 1NT:

 

(1♦) - P - (1NT) - P

(P) - ?

3rd seat bid 1N and not 1M? Very unusual indeed that 3rd seat doesn't have a major he/she wants to show when I hold something like this, and opener didn't open 1M either. I can't remember ever being in the situation you describe.

 

I have to admit that I play in an environment where 4 card majors and weak NT are the norm. And some of the 4 card major people are opening the higher of 2 4 card suits as well. This may considerably affect my experience compared to yours.

 

Nick

[whereagles]

I learned that this dbl = "lead dummy's suit". One can argue this is a good use for it.