Help me bid these

[TimG]

South to start things off, no enemy bidding:

 

Axxxx

xxx

Kx

AQx

 

x

AKQJx

AQxx

Jxx

[blackshoe]

1♥-1♠

2♦-4♥

4♠-4NT......♠ control; RKCB

5♣-5♦....3 key cards; ♥Q?

5♠-5NT......Yes, but no ♠K; ♣K?

6♣-6♥....Nope. Okay, 6 it is.

[P_Marlowe]

1H (1) - 1S (1)

2D (1) - 3C (2)

3H (3) - 4H (4)

Pass (5)

 

(1) SAYC style

(2) FSF

(3) what is your default rebid? For me, it is 3H,

i.e. 3H does not promise 6

(4) unfortunately, this does not show the fit,

as the auchtion went, it may well be, that

responder needed to decide, which game has

the best chances

(5) what else? no sure fit, shortage in partner suit.

 

As it is: On this hand it would have been helpful to

be able to bid 2NT instead of 1S as some kind of

Jacoby, showing the fit + gameforcing values, of

course if you bid it, opener has 4 spades, i.e. we

wont discover our 5-4 spade fit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

I would bid, I hope,

1♥ 1♠

2♦ 3♣

3♦ 3♥

3♠ 4♣

4NT etc.

I think it's least harmful to lie about the minor, and it's also the cheapest bid.

 

That being said, 1♥ 1♠ 2♦ 3♣ is well known as one of the worst auctions in standard bidding. Some possible workarounds are -

 

- Respond 2♣ (Rexford!)

- Play 1♥ 2♠ is 6-9ish with 6+ spades, and 1♥ 1♠ 2X 2♠ is an artificial game force, like FSF

- Play a strong club

[Apollo81]

I like responding 2♣ on the North hand. We will never miss a 5-4 spade fit, and I can show a GF with 3 hearts much more easily this way by avoiding the dreaded 3♣ FSF auction. Look how nice the auction becomes:

 

1♥-2♣

2♦-2♥

3♣

 

however you think it should go from here, it seems clear that NS will get to slam since responder has all working high cards and opener will show slam interest

[mike777]

I like responding 2♣ on the North hand.  We will never miss a 5-4 spade fit, and I can show a GF with 3 hearts much more easily this way by avoiding the dreaded 3♣ FSF auction.  Look how nice the auction becomes:

 

1♥-2♣

2♦-2♥

3♣

 

however you think it should go from here, it seems clear that NS will get to slam since responder has all working high cards and opener will show slam interest

why do you never miss spades?

 

 

do you never rebid 2d with 4=5=4=0?...1h=2c=2d?

Or do you bid:

 

1h=2c

2d=2h

2s? now is 2s= spades or just ace of spades?

 

I guess I would try:

 

1h=1s

2d=3c

3h=4h

4s as rkc etc..

 

 

3c is a pretty good hand in my style....14+ very very often

[mikeh]

I like josh's auction. I think there was a BW MSC problem, years ago, that confronted opener's rebid on 54 after a 4SF auction, and the consensus (which was far from unanimous) was that it was better to rebid the 4 card minor, at the 3-level, than to make any other call.

 

Of course, this is virtually a non-problem if one responds 2♣. However, ken to the contrary, responding 2♣ on these hands does not solve all problems.

 

Imagine trying to find a 5-3 spade fit when opener is 3=5=1=4.

 

Or, when the partnership really has clubs, how do we continue?

 

Ken, I am NOT asking these questions so as to get a long post from you explaining how you solve all of these issues B) .

 

That is not appropriate in this forum. What is appropriate is trying to assist us in deciding how to handle this combination with no specialized gadgets.

 

BTW, I found Blackshoe's sequence unconvincing.. I have no idea where opener found the magic 4♠ call... from his perspective, when responder signed off in 4♥ (and don't let's confuse this call: in standard, the jump is either signoff or picture, and it clearly isn't picture when S is looking at 100 honours in trump) there is firstly no reason to expect slam and secondly, no 5-level safety.

[Free]

1♥ - 1♠

2♣! - 2♦! (Gazzilli - 8+HCP any)

3♦! - 3♥ (16+, nat, 0-2♠)

3♠ - 4♣

...

[kenrexford]

Axxxx

xxx

Kx

AQx

 

x

AKQJx

AQxx

Jxx

 

Easy auction.

 

O: 1♥

R: 2♣ (100%. Agree strain and GF as quickly as possible. Can backdoor into spades often.)

O: 2♦ (that's why I bid 2♣)

R: 2♥ (strain and GF established, lots of space available -- life is good)

 

At this point, my style...

 

O: 2♠ (spade control, whether stiff, void, King, or Ace. If stiff, will not have two of the top three hearts AND three of the top four diamonds.)

R: 2NT (poor trump honors obviously)

O: 3♦ (none of the top three clubs, two of the top three diamonds, trumps at least manageable.

R: 3♠ (spade control, not even one of the top three trumps)

O: 3NT (contextually serious, because of the solid trumps)

R: 4♣ (two of the top three clubs)

O: 4♦ (LTTC -- needs something more)

R: 4NT (RKCB because of the diamond King and two first-round controls)

O: Shows 3

R: 6♥

 

Glad that I can actually...

 

(1A) agree trumps

(1B) at a low level

(1C) with GF in effect

(2) without making up suits in a "least harmful" manner

(3A) with actual ability to have legitimate cues that are not ambiguous

(3B) and many of them, with lots of discussion before the 4NT call.

[han]

Playing standard there isn't much to add to jdonn's post. Some might bid 3H over 3C and then it would be a lot harder.

 

My auction with cherdano might also start 1H-2C but we play artifical responses to 2C and we wouldn't miss a 5-4 spade fit. On this hand opener would show 1543 shape with extra values and responder would cue. It shouldn't be hard to get to slam after that.

[jdonn]

Just for the heck of it, my TOSR auction.

 

1♣ 1♥ (16+, 4+♠ and unbalanced [any shape that's not a 4333 or 4432])

1NT 2♣ (16-19 and 3-suited with short spades [denies A K Q of spades], relay)

3♣ 3♦ (1543 with at most 5 controls, relay)

3♥ 6♥ (AK [or neither] in hearts, there is no hand partner can have where either 6♥ is bad or 7♥ is good)

[mcphee]

The N hand goes via 4th suit rather than limiting their hand with a direct jump to game implies a hand worth exploration.

1H 1S

2D 3C

3H 4H shows out side values worthy of a look toward slam. The S hand is far too good to give up and should appreciate partners possible problem. A direct jump to 4H after 2D shows a minimum hand type which hopes we have a chance to make game and it would be foolish for the opening hand to bid on. The S hand bids 4S and the slam is reached, or should be.

[cherdano]

Is it so clear that 3H sets trumps in Josh's auction, and that 3S is a cuebid? Wouldn't we all construct this auction to get to 4S with Kx Axxxx KQxx xx opposite AQxxx Kx Axx xxx?

[awm]

With a number of partners I play a cute convention that solves all the 1♥-1♠-2♦ problems. Our auction would start:

 

1♥ - 1♠

1NT(1) - 3♥(2)

 

(1) 4+♦ or 2533 exactly, essentially forcing one round

(2) Natural and forcing to game; invitational hands through 2♣ "4th suit invitational"

 

This method loses you the natural 1NT rebid, but 2/1 players seem to have basically given up playing 1NT after a major suit opening in any case. In addition to resolving all the problems in the ugly natural 1♥-1♠-2♦ auction (now you can not only game force easily, but you can also stop at the two-level after a declined invitation), opener gets a guaranteed rebid after showing diamonds (which helps when opener has a strong but "complicated" hand where you'd need to rebid 3♦ GF in standard), and you also get the free sequence of 1♥-1♠-2♦! which I use to show a "2.5 spade raise."

[han]

Adam, what does 2/1 have to do with it? And why have such players given up on playing 1NT after 1H-1S-1NT?

 

Arend should stop asking difficult questions.

[Sambolino]

what about plain 1h-1s-3d-6h

[jdonn]

Is it so clear that 3H sets trumps in Josh's auction, and that 3S is a cuebid? Wouldn't we all construct this auction to get to 4S with Kx Axxxx KQxx xx opposite AQxxx Kx Axx xxx?

3♥ definitely sets trumps. And opener's third bid on that is obviously 3♠ :rolleyes: As I have stated before, I bid 4SF then rebid that suit on a hand like responders in your example (if opener's third bid is 3♦), to show no known fit. Of course 3NT could be where we belong, but we already knew this is a bad auction.

[gwnn]

What about "cuebids in partner's suit should show A K or Q"? Does it not apply here or is it just a bad concept?

[P_Marlowe]

what about plain 1h-1s-3d-6h

3D? Forcing to game , when partner only

answered on the one levl?

Depending on your response style, all partner

needs for the 1S response is Axxxx and out

or a a Jack some where.

3D is certainly not an option, ... unless it is not

gameforcing, in which case 6H is certainly a huge

overbid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[awm]

Adam, what does 2/1 have to do with it? And why have such players given up on playing 1NT after 1H-1S-1NT?

Okay, I will explain this slowly.

 

Playing the convention I described gives you substantial benefits in a number of situations. These include:

 

(1) When opener has a natural 2♦ rebid you will have much better auctions.

(2) When opener has a natural 3♦ rebid, you will have better auctions.

(3) When opener has a spade raise, including the dreaded bridge world death hand, you will have much better auctions because of the artificial 2♦ rebid showing a good spade raise.

 

The only negative to this convention is that you lose a natural 1NT rebid. Thus you can no longer play in 1NT in the auction that starts 1♥-1♠. So the question is, how big of a problem is that? Is it a sufficiently big problem that it outweighs all of the benefits of (1)-(3)? Obviously I cannot prove anything one way or another. But I can make this statement:

 

A very substantial number of bridge players have given up on playing in 1NT after they open 1♠, because they play a forcing 1NT response. Many of these players also give up on playing 1NT after they open 1♥, except possibly for the case where partner responds in spades at the one level. Some people who play "Kaplan Inversion" have given up on playing 1NT completely after they open 1♥. Of course, it is possible that all these players could be "wrong" and that in fact it might be very important to be able to play in 1NT after opening 1M. But the fact that so many players (including many very good players) have given up on playing 1NT after they open 1M in so many sequences, in exchange for various other mild gains elsewhere in their methods, suggests that the ability to play in 1NT after opening 1M is probably not that valuable.

 

I will also make the point that a lot of people like to raise partner's major suit response on three cards. If this is you, then a lot of 35(32) hands will end up raising spades after 1♥-1♠. This makes the already infrequent 1NT rebid even rarer (even if you add a few 15(34) patterns it tends not to compensate for the 35(32) ones). It does not make a whole lot of sense to play a method where opener's cheapest rebid is also among the least frequent, but because of the combination of promising limited strength and very limited shape, a 2♣ or 2♦ or 2♥ or 2♠ rebid will be a lot more frequent than 1NT in standard methods. This also suggests that my treatment (or in any case a treatment where opener's 1NT rebid is more common) has merit.

[pclayton]

I think there are treatments like Adam's that are being tested.

 

Len Vishnevsky proposed a structure called "Bug" in the 5/03 Bridge World that suggested:

 

--2♣ shows a minimum hand with 5 hearts and at least 5 in a minor

 

--2♦ is a one round force, showing several hand types.

 

--3m is a GF 5-5.

 

All Adam is doing is rearranging some of these bids. I can see 1♥ - 1♠ - 1N as artificial, and can act like a Gazilli-type rebid.

[Flameous]

1♥ - 1♠ -

2♣* - 3♥ -

4♦ - ...

 

2♣ Gazilli, 3♥ showing 5+♠, 3♥ and mild slam invite. Shouldn't miss after that.

[benlessard]

I really suggest you to play that

 

1H------1S

???-----3H as forcing except if opener rebid 2H

 

 

with a limit raise you just bid 3H and forget about spades even if you got 6 of them.

 

I see about 100 FSF sequence go ashtray every year.

[Bende]

1♥-1♠; 2♣*-2♦*; 2NT*-3♥; 4♦-4NT; 5♦-6♥

 

1♥ = 11-21, 5+♥

1♠ = 4+♠

2♣ = 11-16, 5♥-4♣ or 17+ any

2♦ = GF if opener is 17+

2NT = 17+, denies 5 card side suit and good six card hearts

3♥ = heart support

4♦ = que, denies A or K in spades, denies club control

4NT = RKCB 1430

5♦ = 0 or 3 key cards

[hrothgar]

For what its worth:

 

I posted a somewhat different version of this problem in a couple other forums:

 

In both cases, I provided folks with the following hand

 

Axxxx

xxx

Kx

AQx

 

explained that partner had opened 1♥, and asked what their response would be. In a somewhat suprising development, no one recommended a 2♣ response. Absolutely everyone responded 1♠. (A number of very good players couldn't even fathom why I bothered to ask this question)

 

I hate to suggest that many folks around here let their knowledge of opener's hand bias their response. However, it does seem fairly likely to me.

 

I am completely unconvinced about the merits of a 2♣ response playing "standard" methods. (I considered it particularly useless in for Tim and I since we're playing KS and 1H - 2C doesn't establish a game force)

 

I readily agree that a relay system will do a great job with these hands. An artificial 2♣ response that shows club or a balanced GF will also work fine. However, none of these response address the core question:

 

If you are playing standard methods, how should these hands best be bid? Personally, I found Josh's post the most interesting. I think its interesting to draw out the relative merits of the 3♦ and 3♥ rebids on the third round of the auction.