ArtK78 Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 [hv=d=n&v=b&s=sjxxhaj9xd98xcqtx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Your partner opens 1NT (15-17) and you hold the hand shown above. The conditions are IMPs all vul, but feel free to discuss other conditions. Do you pass? Do you invite in notrump? Do you bid Stayman? If you bid Stayman how do you continue if partner has 4 hearts? If he doesn't have 4 hearts? Also please feel free to comment on how close your decisions are. If they are close, what cards would have to change for you to take a stronger or weaker action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 I stayman and issue the appropriate invite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 We just had one of these and I invited. If I pass now, does that make me a hypocrite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted September 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 We just had one of these and I invited. If I pass now, does that make me a hypocrite? Perhaps. Could you direct me to the other thread? I must have missed it. This hand came up in a local Sectional Swiss yesterday. I made the losing decision and my partner disagreed with my decision, although he said he has had some discussions with others who would have agreed with my decision. I am looking for a consensus, if there is one. More precisely, I am trying to determine the point between pass and invitation. I thought that this hand was right about on the line. Others might disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=27368&st=0 http://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co...te-paradox.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 Art, whatever you did on this hand, I wouldn't feel bad about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 I liked the other hand better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 [hv=d=n&v=b&s=sjxxhaj9xd98xcqtx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Your partner opens 1NT (15-17) and you hold the hand shown above. The conditions are IMPs all vul, but feel free to discuss other conditions. Do you pass? Do you invite in notrump? Do you bid Stayman? If you bid Stayman how do you continue if partner has 4 hearts? If he doesn't have 4 hearts? Also please feel free to comment on how close your decisions are. If they are close, what cards would have to change for you to take a stronger or weaker action? At the given conditions, I'd invite with an eye toward 3NT. At pairs, I'd pass 1NT. Even if I knew partner had 4 hearts, I'd prefer 3NT to 4♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shubi Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 after opening 1nt with 20 count, whatever i do partner has one thing to say SORRY. period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 after opening 1nt with 20 count, whatever i do partner has one thing to say SORRY. period. Yes, this underscores the importance of inviting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted September 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 I remember the other thread now. I even participated in it, but not on this issue. At the table, I passed, and partner made 11 tricks! He had a max with good spots, and we had a 4-4 heart fit. Not only did he find the missing ♥Q, but every time the defense touched a card, they gave him a trick. The blog about the paradox that a hand might be good enough to invite in NT but if you find a 4-4 major fit you should stop short of game is interesting. This hand might be one of those, but partner's hand is so good that 4♥ will probably make anytime he finds the missing ♥Q. He certainly has a loser in every side suit. I believe that he held this hand: [hv=d=s&v=b&s=sathktxxdaqtxca9x]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dicklont Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 I believe that he held this hand: Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: IMP ♠ AT ♥ KTxx ♦ AQTx ♣ A9x That raises the next question: is 1NT an underbid for 17HCP with three tens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 That raises the next question: is 1NT an underbid for 17HCP with three tens? I would upgrade this hand if playing 15-17. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 I invite on all but the worst 8s, I guess my experiences are different from most. Also if I didn't I might never invite at all, since 8 with a five card suit or 9 tends to be a game bid :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Hi, I would say pass, ... i said in the other thread, I wouldinvite. I believe the hand is slightly weaker, than the hand inthe other thread, but using the 6421 count, I get the same number, the same for the number os controls,so ... no facts to back my believes up. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Hi, I would say pass, ... i said in the other thread, I wouldinvite.... Yeah - I tend to agree - this one looks much more marginal. I might invite if partner never upgrades 14s and even perhaps downgrades a 15 once in blue moon - otherwise I'm content to take the plus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Also please feel free to comment on how close your decisions are. If they are close, what cards would have to change for you to take a stronger or weaker action? OK, you did ask! I base my assessment of a hand around the 6/4/2/1 count - plus quite a reasonable amount for distribution when assessing a hand for suit play - basically the same as zar points except that I think 2 for length in the longest suit is overkill. This isn't, however, brilliant for NT. I adjust the 6/4/2/1 count to something similar to what is, in effect, the system of fifths (4, 2.8, 1.8, 1, 0.4) except based around a 52 point deck. This is 5.5, 4, 2.25, 1.25, 0.5, 0.25 - plus 1 for a six card suit, 0.5 for a 5 carder and 0.25 if the longest suit is 4 cards but not a 4333 shape. This is hard work on your thinking apparatus, but does seem to pay dividends - so I persist with it - I don't expect many others to pick this system up and use it. A 15 count is about 20.25 on this system. Shouldn't be as bad as 19.5 or it should probably be downgraded to my mind. I like to see a total of 34 ideally in the two hands for 3N if playing MP. 33.5 is OK for nv at IMPs, can be as pushy as only 33 for vul at IMPs. I like to be reasonably assured that we have 32 or damn close to it to invite. This means that I would like to have at least 11.75 to invite. The example hand is 11.25 - therefore I am going to risk passing. As a 17 count could be around 22.75 on this system (any more and I would be thinking of upgrading) I am risking missing a game - but 15 counts are a good deal more common than 17s - also you don't make all games that any point count system suggests are probable anyway, so I prefer the plus. This hand counts for more by the NT method here than it will by the suit method (usually it is the other way round) - and I'm looking for 36 for 4M, so I won't even think about hearts. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 There's an old bridgeworld article that says something like a balanced 8.5-9 HCP hand is needed to invite at vul IMPs. Balanced 9.5-10 count makes a good invite at non-vul (pretty sure although maybe it was 9-9.5) Some big analysis taking into account +/- expectation at game and also going down in 2NT. When I read it I thought it was kind of funny because obviously you learn 8-9 HCP is an invite but here it's only a half-HCP range that makes or breaks the invite. Obvoiusly 5-card suits and such throw a big wrench in the analysis. This definitely looks like 8.5+ HCP to me so I'd invite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 9.5-10 is wrong Kevin, I remember the article. I thought it was in bridge today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'd invite with this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'd pass this hand. Not particularly close for me with the 4333 shape. Oh my, did I miss a roughly 50% game opposite a super-max that most people would upgrade? I think this is a worthwhile trade for the many silly 2NT contracts I would reach by inviting, and the many poor games when opener has, say, the same hand with a small spade instead of ♠T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'd pass this hand. Not particularly close for me with the 4333 shape. Oh my, did I miss a roughly 50% game opposite a super-max that most people would upgrade? I think this is a worthwhile trade for the many silly 2NT contracts I would reach by inviting, and the many poor games when opener has, say, the same hand with a small spade instead of ♠T. We don't base our bidding decisions around 5 IMP swings Adam. 'Round here you gotta bid 'dem 24 point 3N's with 4333 opposite 3433. Bid to the hilt and play to the hilt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 We don't base our bidding decisions around 5 IMP swings Adam. 'Round here you gotta bid 'dem 24 point 3N's with 4333 opposite 3433. Bid to the hilt and play to the hilt. And hope your opponents can't defend worth ****? This might work in your local club game, but good luck trying it against serious opposition. And before someone says "but Meckwell bid game on every hand" -- I have seen them stay out of plenty of lousy games on 25 and even 26 points, as well as bidding and making 3NT on 22 or 23. They do well because they evaluate hands well, not because they bid game on every hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I've also seen Meckwell get to some louse 3NT's Adam. Unfortunately I did not double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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