Level? Strain?

[Guest Jlall]

You hold KQT Qx Qxxx AKxx at imps. The auction starting with you goes:

 

1N 3C 3H p

3N p 4D p

?

 

Your 1N was 15-17. What do you do now?

[kenrexford]

5♦.

[Lobowolf]

5♣

[peachy]

4H. With halfway worthless club honors and otherwise aceless, I am not interested in slam. Partner already knows I don't have three card hearts so this should easily be understood as suggestion of final contract with honor doubleton. If this does not get passed, partner probably has enough for slam opposite almost anything I can have for a 1N opening, and there we go.

[655321]

5♣.

 

Actually, I am not sure what I should bid. I definitely prefer diamonds to hearts, so am going to make some bid higher than 4♥. Also, my hand is not great for slam, with potentially wasted club cards. But does that mean I should just bid 5♦, bypassing both black suit cue bids? Should I bid 4♠, or does that sound more enthusiastic than this hand merits?

 

I will compromise by bidding 5♣ to let partner know about my club control, in case he is interested in slam.

[Cascade]

Why didn't i pass 3♥?

 

Surely this is non-forcing.

[jdonn]

5♦, certainly there are hands with three hearts that would have bid 3NT, so I don't prefer 4♥ here with a sound alternative.

[rogerclee]

Why didn't i pass 3♥?

 

Surely this is non-forcing.

I have never heard of any method which uses 3♥ NF.

 

On the actual hand I bid 5♦. I don't think the hand is good enough to bid 5♣.

[Cascade]

Why didn't i pass 3♥?

 

Surely this is non-forcing.

I have never heard of any method which uses 3♥ NF.

So after the opponents bid at the three-level you have no way of playing anything other than game - even a takeout double would force to game as partner can't be guaranteed to have a suit that he could bid at the three-level.

 

With

 

♠ KJ10xxx

♥ xxx

♦ xxx

♣ x

 

knowing that our side likely has the balance of strength I have a choice passing or forcing to game.

 

Meanwhile if I want to be in game I have multiple ways to get there - forcing 3♠, jump to 4♠, Double then bid etc.

 

It makes little sense to me to not have some way of competing for a part-score when the hand belongs to our side.

[rogerclee]

Why didn't i pass 3♥?

 

Surely this is non-forcing.

I have never heard of any method which uses 3♥ NF.

So after the opponents bid at the three-level you have no way of playing anything other than game - even a takeout double would force to game as partner can't be guaranteed to have a suit that he could bid at the three-level.

 

With

 

♠ KJ10xxx

♥ xxx

♦ xxx

♣ x

 

knowing that our side likely has the balance of strength I have a choice passing or forcing to game.

 

Meanwhile if I want to be in game I have multiple ways to get there - forcing 3♠, jump to 4♠, Double then bid etc.

 

It makes little sense to me to not have some way of competing for a part-score when the hand belongs to our side.

Some people transfer here, which I think is a fine method. I said I have never heard of anyone playing 3♥ NF, not that I have never heard of anyone being able to play 3M.

 

Also I disagree that double is forcing to game.

[Cascade]

So what do you expect partner to bid over your double with some minimum 3=3=3=4 hand without great clubs (but with a stopper)?

 

The situation is worse if the overcall is in a higher suit.

 

Sure you might get lucky and partner bid a suit that you can pass at the three-level but on certain hands you are forcing partner to bid 3NT without any extras so you have to be pretty decent for the double.

 

If you play transfers then presumably they start at double or maybe you don't transfer to diamonds.

 

Transfers at least cater to a wider range of hands than the methods suggested by the opening post which seem to me to be extremely inefficient.

[Cascade]

Since i've been criticized for not answering the question ...

 

I will pass now like i should have done on the previous round.

 

Maybe if 3♥ guarantees six hearts then I will bid 4♥.

[P_Marlowe]

So what do you expect partner to bid over your double with some minimum 3=3=3=4 hand without great clubs (but with a stopper)?

 

The situation is worse if the overcall is in a higher suit.

 

Sure you might get lucky and partner bid a suit that you can pass at the three-level but on certain hands you are forcing partner to bid 3NT without any extras so you have to be pretty decent for the double.

 

If you play transfers then presumably they start at double or maybe you don't transfer to diamonds.

 

Transfers at least cater to a wider range of hands than the methods suggested by the opening post which seem to me to be extremely inefficient.

Hi,

 

I would only say, that preempts work sometimes.

 

You have a similar sitiuation, if they open 3S, and

partner makes a t/o.

The t/o basically forces you to game, and you wont

have the same minimum strength than in the situation

we are currently discussing, unless you require, that

the guy who makes the t/o, holds a hand with game

forcing strength.

 

The question is, what would a typical non-forcing 3H

look like?

 

6HCP with a 5 carder? I doubt it. In the worst case

21 HCP for the partnership and no fit.

6HCP with a 6 carder? Sure, but than I think, you would

not wont mind selling the hand as gameforcing, and of

course some would bid 4H direct.

 

If you are weaker, you may still bid 4H, or you follow

the old advice never too preempt over an preempt,

besides partner is still alive.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

I have seen some decent English players passing 3♥ but with a Dutch or American p I would assume it is forcing which is also my preferred treatment (ok, maybe transfers are better).

 

I would bid 5♦ now, or maybe sign off in 4NT if I can be sure p takes that as natural. ♣K is probably not worth much in a trump contract.

[ewj]

Since i've been criticized for not answering the question ...

 

I will pass now like i should have done on the previous round.

 

Maybe if 3♥ guarantees six hearts then I will bid 4♥.

Pass? Don't think partner would appreciate that.

 

I'll bid 5C...partner will probably bid 5D over that I expect.

[paulg]

I'd bid 5♦ at the table but feel that 4NT should probably show this hand.

[Cascade]

Since i've been criticized for not answering the question ...

 

I will pass now like i should have done on the previous round. 

 

Maybe if 3♥ guarantees six hearts then I will bid 4♥.

Pass? Don't think partner would appreciate that.

Why not if he wanted me to pass 3♥ on the previous round.

 

As I said if I knew that 3♥ promised six then i would give a preference.

 

Who knows with the double fit we might be able to make game.

[MFA]

This is a bad hand, so I'm not bidding anything to encourage partner. It's 5♦ or 4♥.

 

4♥ is tempting, because our ♣AK makes it very likely that they can't force the 5-2. So if partner has just scraped up his gameforce, it could easily be more likely to hold down the losers in 4♥ to 3 than the losers in 5♦ to 2.

 

But there are obvious downsides to 4♥ too, partner could have a horrible heart suit for instance.

 

Sign me up for a 5♦ bid.

[mike777]

I thought 5c wtp until I went back and read all the posts. B)

 

As for the side discussion of 3h forcing or not, I thought it was very standard to play:

1) new suits at 3 level forcing.

2) x is card showing (like a neg double but you dont absolutely promise 4 cards in unbid major)

3) 3nt tends to have stoppers and less inclined to have length in unbid suits as opposed to card showing double.

[nige1]

You hold KQT Qx Qxxx AKxx at imps. The auction starting with you goes:

1N 3C 3H p

3N p 4D p

?

Your 1N was 15-17. What do you do now?

IMO 4♥ = 10, 4N = 9, 5♦ = 8, 5♣ = 5, 4♠ = 4, _P = 3

The hand is poor in context.

[han]

I know the hand so I'm a little biased. I agree that this hand is poor in context, even though we have a fit and our club honors could be worse. Partner has shown the red suits (for troll Cascade: it was forcing) and almost all our strength is in the black suits. So cuebidding seems wrong.

[cherdano]

I would also bid 5♦, not good enough for 5♣, and 4N is misguided, too. I admit 4♥ could be the winner, but with possible bad breaks etc. it is too smart for me.

[pclayton]

5♦. I like this hand, but I don't love it. 4N would be go away.

 

We need four of the five non-club honors to make slam. Is pard pulling with three: xx AKxxxx Axxxx x? Ax Axxxx Axxxx x? xx Axxxx AKxxx x?. I would only say no with the 2nd.

 

If pard does have 4 of the top 5: Ax AKxxx Axxxx x, he can carry on himself.

[andy_h]

I think I'll opt for 5C. My hand is decent but not that great as I've got lots of stuff in the black suits. On the bright side they are controls in the black suits and I've got the red queens for partner. I don't want partner in agony if he has something like xx AKxxx AKxxx x as our hand could be worse.

[Apollo81]

5♦.

 

My second choice is a natural 4NT. I don't like 4♥ since we could be 3-2 in the red suits for this sequence, and play in our 7-card heart fit instead of our 10-card diamond fit. Cuebidding is just silly with the amount of non working HCP we have in this hand.