mike777 Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Do expert players downgrade most if not all....14-16 or 15-17 nt openings when 4333 or basically never downgrade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Yeah, I'll downgrade if I'm 4333, aceless and spotless. All three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Basically never (yes I know I downgraded on BBO today to be funny :P). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Agree with Han. Not worth a 15 IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 No. I got dealt 15 HCP and a balanced hand, then I'm bidding it, and letting partner worry about looking after the spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 I would downgrade 4432 with stiff QJ or KJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 I downgrade a bad balanced x count out of a strong club if I can open 1NT (but not out of natural 1m). But never not open 1NT sorry. People are known to misdefend, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 If you are playing matchpoints you should never downgrade into or out of 1NT for strategic reasons, just open the normal thing and beat them in the play. At imps you should never do it for scoring reasons, they give a bonus for making game you know! Yes Han does it. He is a small minority, and we deservedly mock him :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 If you are playing matchpoints you should never downgrade into or out of 1NT for strategic reasons, just open the normal thing and beat them in the play. At imps you should never do it for scoring reasons, they give a bonus for making game you know! Yes Han does it. He is a small minority, and we deservedly mock him :P I know I'll get flamed for this, but if your judgment tells you not to open 1N at MPs, then don't do it. I've never bought into the whole "field" philosophy on hands like this. If opening 1N rates to get you to a crappy 3N, then don't do it. I'm perfectly happy to play a superior contract than the rest of the field. Using the 'field' logic, you should also open 1N with Ax Kxx AKxxx QJx. After all its a balanced 17, and we expect the sheep to open this 1N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 I don't get it. If I am supposed to open 1NT even with some very bad 15-counts, then I should also do so with intermediate 14-counts and good 13-counts, and I should write 14-17 or something on my CC. I can understand that literal MW points may be significant if playing a weak 1NT, since failure to open with a bad 12-point is more likely to cause a passout than is failure to open a good 10-count. For strong NT, I don't see the relevance of the literal MW count. If I evaluate a particular 14-count as equally good as a particular 15-count then I should be equally likely to open 1NT on both of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 If opening 1N rates to get you to a crappy 3N, then don't do it. Who says it does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 I don't agree with jdonn. It is true that poor bridge players will only count their HCP and it pays to stay with the field at matchpoint (assuming that you play the cards as well as jdonn thinks he does). So he has a good point there. On the other hand, some really bad 15-counts are much worse than some really nice 14-counts. Only beginners would disagree with that. It doesn't make sense to me to open the former with 1NT and the latter with 1m. So I'll upgrade a 14-count if it seems to me that it will play like a reasonable 15-count, and I'll downgrade a 15-count if it seems to me that it will play worse than most 14-counts. Notice I much prefer upgrading to downgrading, mostly because I think it is generally and advantage to open 1NT. It is true that in the past I've gone a bit far with upgrading and downgrading. The mocking was not only entertaining, it has also made me more conservative with this but I will still adjust HCP more often than Justin or Josh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Using the 'field' logic, you should also open 1N with Ax Kxx AKxxx QJx. Yes, I would open 1NT with this hand, you don't have enough respect for spotcards Phil. To upgrade out of a 1NT opening you will need to give me a better hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 It is true that in the past I've gone a bit far with upgrading and downgrading. The mocking was not only entertaining, it has also made me more conservative with this The system works! It really works!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 I don't get it. If I am supposed to open 1NT even with some very bad 15-counts, then I should also do so with intermediate 14-counts and good 13-counts, and I should write 14-17 or something on my CC. I think you should probably write something on your CC, but whether it should say 14-17 is, to me, an open question. Some people, probably the majority by a long way I guess open a fixed hcp range - normally 15-17 or 12-14. But, to use the weak range just for exmple, some of their 12s are no better than 11 and some of their 14s are worth a 15. If that is the really the case, is someone who upgrades good 11s to 12, downgrades bad 12s to 11, good 14s to 15 and bad 15s to 14 really being less accurate with their NT range if they call it 12-14? Should they really say 11-15, when, allowing for good/bad features, their range is arguably/actually more narrowly defined than someone who religiously plays 12-14hcp only? Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 Should they really say 11-15, when, allowing for good/bad features, their range is arguably/actually more narrowly defined than someone who religiously plays 12-14hcp only? That is not what I am saying. Consider KQJKQJxxxxxxx vs AxxKJTxJ9xxQx T9T9xT9xAKQJT If you treat all of them as 12 points then IMHO you are misinforming. Your real lower range for a 1NT opening is closer to 11 in the sense that your minimum is a hand with a playing strength like an average balanced 11-count. OTOH if you treat them as 12/11/10, or 11/11/11, or 10/11/12 then you are not biased relative to literal MW counts, you just have a judgment with which some would disagree. I think it would be overkill to make statements on the CC about method of hand evaluation but maybe it depends on the setting. It's not clear to me what the purpose of the OP is. Is it about whether we use adjustments to MW counts when deciding whether or not to open 1NT? To this I suppose all of us would say yes. Or is it about whether we are uncomfortable with the NT range stated on our CC and therefore look for opportunities to 1NT on more/fewer/weaker/stronger hands? Suppose 15-17 would spell 14.500-17.499 if one uses 3-digit accuracy, but have the partnership understanding to play 14.300-17.299 but write 15-17 on the CC for simplicity, then I would say I upgrade more often than I downgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMorris Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 I play a weak NT in the UK, will open a good 11 eg with QJ10xx in a suit but pass a bad 12 eg AxxxxxxAxxAxx and especially so vulnerable in 3rd. I will also downgrade a bad 15 eg with QJ stiff in a suit. I still say 12-14 as any such up/downgrades occur infrequently. Stating 11+ to 15- is inaccurate as people might expect more 11 & 15 counts than actually occur, although I do say "may not open a poor 12" on my CC. I consider this all fairly standard although am happy to be educated otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 In jimmy cayne matches, jec and his partners play 15-17 1NT, when holding 18 hcp and 4333 they seem to open 1NT essentially all the time. Here are examples of then they hold 15 hcp and 4333 and what they open, draw your own conclusions.IMP-223 miamiwiz Dlr: West Board 28 S AK5 Vul: N-S H AJ7 fanny4 D J95 stewball S J97 C 8742 S Q642 H T54 H K983 D 76432 jec D A8 C T9 S T83 C Q63 H Q62 D KQT C AKJ5 09-Dec-05 3:04:06 AM First 2:27:53 AM, Last 3:04:06 AM East South West North fanny4 miamiwiz stewball jec Pass 1C Pass 2NT* Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass 1. forcing ------------------------------------------IMP-1616 jec Dlr: East Board 26 S J96 Vul: Both H AT985 ybob D A43 supermax S KT8 C J6 S Q754 H 6 H J32 D K752 miamiwiz D JT9 C 98732 S A32 C KQ5 H KQ74 D Q86 C AT4 East South West North ybob jec supermax miamiwiz Pass Pass Pass 1C Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------IMP-387 ollina Dlr: East Board 26 S QT642 Vul: Both H KT2 baylind D T4 coach1 S J7 C Q96 S K5 H A6543 H 87 D KQ982 jec D J73 C K S A983 C JT7532 H QJ9 D A65 C A84 West North East South baylind ollina coach1 jec 47.24 65.87 52.22 60.41 Pass 1C 1H 1S Pass 2S 3D 3S Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------IMP-1840 miamiwiz Dlr: West Board 8 S AQT9 Vul: None H Q83 helstokk D Q98 ghelgemo S J743 C T98 S K5 H AKT62 H 94 D JT6 jec D K752 C 3 S 862 C 76542 H J75 D A43 C AKQJ West North East South helstokk miamiwiz ghelgemo jec 45.94 56.44 48.36 60.41 Pass Pass Pass 1C 1H Dbl Pass 1NT Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------IMP-1315 jec Dlr: North Board 9 S KQJ75 Vul: E-W H J753 gabipest D QT jakartajl S 43 C K8 S T62 H T4 H KQ86 D AJ98653 miamiwiz D 7 C Q6 S A98 C J7532 H A92 D K42 C AT94 East South West North gabipest jec jakartajl miamiwiz 60.59 60.41 59.44 56.44 1C 2D 2S Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------IMP-1282 jec Dlr: West Board 4 S T753 Vul: Both H A86 PYG D A974 Jackth S A842 C J5 S QJ H T5 H J732 D K5 weedo D JT83 C T8632 S K96 C A74 H KQ94 D Q62 C KQ9 East South West North PYG jec Jackth weedo 62.06 60.41 54.73 49.66 Pass 1C Pass 1S Pass 1NT Pass Pass Pass ---------------------------------------IMP-351 smispi Dlr: West Board 4 S A3 Vul: Both H KJ3 weedo D J97 earlg S 98 C AJ632 S QJ642 H 987652 H 4 D T5 jec D K6432 C KQ9 S KT75 C 74 H AQT D AQ8 C T85 East South West North weedo smispi earlg jec 49.66 58.12 51.79 60.41 Pass 1NT Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------IMP-351 jec Dlr: East Board 14 S K8 Vul: None H K2 earlg D 97654 weedo S T62 C AQ85 S QJ54 H J963 H A854 D 2 smispi D JT83 C KT632 S A973 C J H QT7 D AKQ C 974 17-Dec-05 2:02:44 AM First 1:30:42 AM, Last 2:02:44 AM West North East South earlg jec weedo smispi Pass 1NT Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------IMP-875 miamiwiz Dlr: North Board 5 S AK Vul: N-S H 7 lokaty D A9862 satyryk S 95 C KJT84 S JT8642 H KQT943 H J65 D QT3 jec D J7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 IMP-875 miamiwiz Dlr: North Board 5 S AK Vul: N-S H 7 lokaty D A9862 satyryk S 95 C KJT84 S JT8642 H KQT943 H J65 D QT3 jec D J7 C 62 S Q73 C 97 H A82 D K54 C AQ53 23-Dec-05 12:57:26 AM First 12:55:46 AM, Last 12:57:26 AM East South West North lokaty miamiwiz satyryk jec 1NT 3H 4D Pass 5D Pass 6D Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------IMP-771 jec Dlr: West Board 20 S KT7 Vul: Both H JT83 sillafu D A76 snabu S Q943 C K42 S J8 H K4 H A762 D T2 smispi D J9853 C QJ963 S A652 C T5 H Q95 D KQ4 C A87 14-Jan-06 2:34:47 AM First 2:32:30 AM, Last 2:34:47 AM West North East South sillafu jec snabu smispi Pass Pass Pass 1NT Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------IMP-703 ollina Dlr: North Board 25 S K8542 Vul: E-W H caracci D QJ32 loloc S 7 C QT75 S QJT3 H J9852 H KQT63 D 9754 jec D K6 C 843 S A96 C AJ H A74 D AT8 C K962 24-Jan-06 2:33:45 AM First 2:33:45 AM, Last 3:00:22 AM East South West North caracci ollina loloc jec 1NT Pass 2H Dbl 2S Pass 4S Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------IMP-662 ollina Dlr: North Board 13 S Q542 Vul: Both H JT7 LLORENZO D T92 nevaio S 986 C AQ8 S J7 H K43 H AQ62 D 64 jec D AJ753 C J9754 S AKT3 C 62 H 985 D KQ8 C KT3 29-Jan-06 9:10:03 PM First 9:10:03 PM, Last 9:20:49 PM East South West North LLORENZO ollina nevaio jec 1NT Pass 2NT Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 Using the 'field' logic, you should also open 1N with Ax Kxx AKxxx QJx. Yes, I would open 1NT with this hand, you don't have enough respect for spotcards Phil. To upgrade out of a 1NT opening you will need to give me a better hand. Han, you can keep your spotcards. I'll take AK-5th over 10's and 9's any day :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 If you treat all of them as 12 points then IMHO you are misinforming.... OTOH if you treat them as 12/11/10, or 11/11/11, or 10/11/12 then you are not biased relative to literal MW counts, you just have a judgment with which some would disagree. I think it would be overkill to make statements on the CC about method of hand evaluation but maybe it depends on the setting. Well, speaking personally, the first is nowhere near worth a 12-14 1NT, the second is a better than average 11 - but questionable as to whether it is worth an upgrade to 12. The best of the hands, to my way of thinking, is the last and I probably would be tempted to open it if playing 12-14 - though in real life I actually wouldn't with my regular partners as we actually play it more like 12+ to 15- (not being a convert to the modern school of opening balanced 11s - but that is question of system, rather than hand valuation). My problem with my own methods is that, although I think my judgement better than average on this sort of question, it gets old ladies upset/confused. Some of the ones that have been around pointedly wonder aloud if they should call the director about it. I say, "you're welcome, I announded my parner's NT as 'about a good 12 to bad 15' and precise details are on the card of how we evaluate a hand - which you didn't bother to look at - plus the Orange book quite explicitlly states you do not have to count points by HCP". This usually shuts them up. I just wish I didn't have to - or that bridge teachers would spend more time bothering to teach the basics of hand valuation - or that NBOs wouldn't say you can use other methods and then define requirements for bids using HCP despite themselves. </grump mode> Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchett Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 JEC is well known as a pretty conservative bidder, I imagine his partners are fitting into his style. Some of them I think are pretty strange downgrades eg A9x A98 Kxx AT9x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 JEC is well known as a pretty conservative bidder, I imagine his partners are fitting into his style. Some of them I think are pretty strange downgrades eg A9x A98 Kxx AT9x Similar to that one were most often opened 1NT.... Matter of fact the large majority of 15 point hands they DID open 1NT, I showed all the ones they did not, and then a representative sample of the ones they did open 1NT. It is the 18 hcp and 4333 that they devaluated and opened 1NT on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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