Which is the weaker sequence?

[Apollo81]

see poll

[Gerben42]

The first sequence is weaker for me, running directly = I have a minimum with lots of distribution.

[cherdano]

Direct pull is weak. This is unanimous for me, 1-0, no second thoughts.

[pclayton]

Direct pull is weak. This is unanimous for me, 1-0, no second thoughts.

Agree.

[skjaeran]

Direct pull is definitely weaker for me.

[han]

I actually play that the direct pull is weaker.

[Guest Jlall]

2 is forcing to me.

[MFA]

Direct pull is weaker although I find this mainstream agreement terrible.

[jdonn]

Direct pull is weaker although I find this mainstream agreement terrible.

Why?

 

(I'm not saying I disagree, truthfully I have no strong opinion).

[awm]

As a general point, it would be nice if the auctions in Noble's two threads were symmetric as to which were the stronger option. The reason is that there is sometimes ambiguity about just how high a force exists, or whether a force is on in various auctions. The mainstream option seems to be that most sequences totally reverse in meaning depending on whether the auction is forcing (i.e. pass and pull is stronger if in a force, weaker if not a force; double is penalty in a force, takeout not in a force). While this might be slightly better for some technical reason, I suspect that most of us who have not discussed every single "might be forcing" sequence under the sun would do better with a general agreement that pass and pull is a weaker option than bidding directly (and that double is takeout, and pass suggests desire to defend).

[jtfanclub]

I play that the first one is a two suiter while the second one has heart tolerence, equally weak. But I guess that's because I play an immediate X of 1♠ here as penalty, while I take it modern standard is takeout?

[TimG]

While this might be slightly better for some technical reason, I suspect that most of us who have not discussed every single "might be forcing" sequence under the sun would do better with a general agreement that pass and pull is a weaker option than bidding directly.

I have this agreement with at least one partner. Pass = weak is easy to remember.

 

I used to think it also could help in tempo sensitive auctions. But read a pretty convincing argument that this is not the case (maybe from jlall).

[skjaeran]

I play that the first one is a two suiter while the second one has heart tolerence, equally weak. But I guess that's because I play an immediate X of 1♠ here as penalty, while I take it modern standard is takeout?

Standard over here is that a direct X of 1♠ is penalties.

[jtfanclub]

I play that the first one is a two suiter while the second one has heart tolerence, equally weak.  But I guess that's because I play an immediate X of 1♠ here as penalty, while I take it modern standard is takeout?

Standard over here is that a direct X of 1♠ is penalties.

OK, so how do 'normal' people show a minimum 1354 hand in this auction, if pass-then-pull shows a stronger hand?

[helene_t]

OK, so how do 'normal' people show a minimum 1354 hand in this auction, if pass-then-pull shows a stronger hand?

Cannot speak for "normal" people, but playing standard methods I would bid 2♣ immediately.

 

1453 is more tricky. Maybe pass followed by 1NT is idle and can be used for such hands?

[TimG]

I play that the first one is a two suiter while the second one has heart tolerence, equally weak.  But I guess that's because I play an immediate X of 1♠ here as penalty, while I take it modern standard is takeout?

Standard over here is that a direct X of 1♠ is penalties.

OK, so how do 'normal' people show a minimum 1354 hand in this auction, if pass-then-pull shows a stronger hand?

If you can't sit for the double (and with a singleton spade it seems reasonable not to want to defend 1S), then you have to bid after 1D-DBL-RDBL-P.

[MFA]

Direct pull is weaker although I find this mainstream agreement terrible.

Why?

 

(I'm not saying I disagree, truthfully I have no strong opinion).

I prefer a style, where I bid if I have something useful to say and pass otherwise. Pass and pull then shows a more flexible hand.

 

5143, bad defense 1s-X-XX-2h ? Good luck. Better to be able to pass and pull to 2s showing this kind of hand.

 

The good hand can bid immediately and won't get preempted by LHO or partner.

The bad hand won't be pushed into inventing some rebid with minimum, but if there is room at the 2-level and it wants to say something, it can bid. So if you bid a suit, you really have it, new suits being F1.

 

The focus should be on strain, not point count.

Note that this is consistent with high level forcng pass principles. When strain is an issue, pass and pull shows flexibility, not just extras.