Precision asking bids

[Flame]

I'm suppose to play super precision in few days and im learning it now.

after 1c - 1M

1NT is CAB-controll asking bid.

and 2M is TAB-trump asking bid.

My question is 2M still TAB even if i used 1nt first ?

Its seems right, but i want to be sure.

[luis]

I'm not sure, I'd take it as natural stablishing the trump suit and inviting to cuebid. If you want to make a TAB and CAB you should use the TAB first and then ask for controls with 4c.

But I think both approaches are sensible.

[inquiry]

I'm suppose to play super precision in few days and im learning it now.

after 1c - 1M

1NT is CAB-controll asking bid.

and 2M is TAB-trump asking bid.

My question is 2M still TAB even if i used 1nt first ?

Its seems right, but i want to be sure.

These greek letter asking bids are fun to use (I think the control asking bid use to be called Beta ask, and the trump asking bid, called gamma). A couple of issues.

 

First, with minimum 1♣ opening hands, don't use them. Bid 2NT or 3M, to warn your partner. IF he has good hand, he will continue and you can bid just fine. You gong to use Espsilon? (side suit control asking bids)? These work well if the opponents would only leave your 1♣ auctions alone.

 

As for your primary question, the answer is yes, you should play the rebid of the major BELOW game (even if you have to rebid at three leve) as trump asking bid. After finding aout about controls, if you don't have enough, you would signoff. So the fact that you are not signing off, suggest continued slam interest despite however controls your partner showed.

 

You may consider whether or not you are going to play the other asking bids as well. Delta was good when needed, alpha was painful sometimes, and I know there is a theta but for the life of me I forget as I sit here what that one was. Will have to go look it up in my notes.

 

ben

[csdenmark]

I am looking into Super Precision these days. Right now I am uploading all but 1♣ openings. Super Precision will be complete within 14 days I think.

 

This is Belladonna/Garozzo version:

 

1♣-1MAJ-1NT= CAB - correct(2MAJ after 1NT is not TAB but CAB-response)

Only 1♣ opener can ask

1♣-1MAJ - something else =Omega, repeat option here

1♣-1MAJ - raise = TAB - later 4♣ can be CAB

 

I see Ben refer to BETA. BETA is ask in a suit not yet established as trump.

[inquiry]

Claus, my friend....

 

I stopped playing italian superprecison many years ago, but I use to play it A LOT. Now, I don't know if i remember everything, but I am fairly sure that BETA was 1NT asking for controls after a positiive 1♥/1♠/

 

What you describe as an "ask in a suit not yet established as trumps" is probably refering to an an alpha asking bid, which ask for general controls and degree of fit.

 

Now you are Mr. Precision around here, so I guess people will take your word when you say I am wrong, but take a look back over your notes and see if I am not, actually right. Sadly, I don't have my books with me right now. I can check in a couple of hours.

 

Ben

[csdenmark]

Hi Ben - I have not played precision in my young days. Nobody, except very few of course, plays precision in Denmark. They play acol in Denmark.

 

There are different versions, also correct different versions, also different correct italian versions. I use Belladonna/Garozzo.

 

Page 209:

 

B. Beta asking Bid

Beta asking bids are made in suits which have not been established as trumps. Here are the cases in which it comes up.

 

I will not come up with the situations here. They will soon come on my web-sites.

 

Dont mind if you have forgot. When I was in your age - my memory had left me too! :rolleyes:

[luis]

I am looking into Super Precision these days. Right now I am uploading all but 1♣ openings. Super Precision will be complete within 14 days I think.

 

This is Belladonna/Garozzo version:

 

1♣-1MAJ-1NT= CAB - correct(2MAJ after 1NT is not TAB but CAB-response)

Only 1♣ opener can ask

1♣-1MAJ - something else =Omega, repeat option here

1♣-1MAJ - raise = TAB - later 4♣ can be CAB

 

I see Ben refer to BETA. BETA is ask in a suit not yet established as trump.

Claus,

I think beta is after 1c-1N;2c

[csdenmark]

Luis BETA is used in several occasions. 1C-1NT-2C=ask distribution. New suit after

2D(H+a 4cd) or 2S(No 4cd) responses will be BETA ask.

[mikestar]

The complete alpahbet of asking bids from Eric Jannerstein's Precision Book:

 

ALPHA: new suit after a positve response (except 2C over 1NT)--asks for degree of support and controls (0-3 or 4+)

BETA: 1NT over 1M or 4C after using ALPHA or singleton suit after impossible neagative--asks numer of controls, answer by steps.

GAMMA: minumum bid of responder's suit below game (after positive response) --asks trump length and honors.

DELTA: jump in new suit after positive response--a BETA ask that sets the bid suit as trumps.

EPSILON: new suit after GAMMA, DELTA or ALPHA or ZETA when the answer establishes trumps--asks for control of bid suit.

ZETA: 2M over 1D--asks for trump support by steps.

ETA: bid of the non-singleton suit after impossible negative, simlar to ALPHA adjusted for the four-card suit.

THETA: 2 of a suit after answer to 1NT BETA--ALPHA with focus on support alone, as controls are known.

 

A side question: does anybody still play Impossible Negative?

[inquiry]

Claus, we maybe speaking different languages. I will note that my Jannerstein book is at home, but here is a link quoting what is in it as it relates to ...

 

http://www.members.shaw.ca/conventions/jpab.htm

 

Maybe you can take a look at this very nicely formatted page and see what it has to say about the greek asking bids. This is exactly the way I use to play, and exactly the way superprecision use to be taught in the US.

 

Just for confirmation, you can also look on the All the conventions you will ever want to know webpage, and see they agree with Jannerstein's book, as well as some of the other links below. And do you have an old encylopedia of bridge? My newest one is probably from the late 70's early 80's (i have a few editions), but I am willing to bet good hard money that beta asking bid if described in my versions of the encyclopeida matches up with the definitions above...

 

Now,all the websited below, and I, may all be very old and very wrong by today's standard. Belladonna has reworked his system, and he can, if he like, change the definition of his asking bids....and apparently he has... but for those of us who learned superprecsion with the greek asking bids years ago, or who use Jannerstein's book, beta is the control asking bid.... But whatever you call it... we all bid the same way, so this is just semantics.... just be aware that not everyone may speak the same language.

 

...

All the convetions you will ever need to know (search down to superprecision asking bids).

 

Many other webpages are showing the same....

 

http://www.chemistry.ohio-state.edu/~heng/...lub/bc_ask.html

 

http://home.nikocity.de/kwiese/konvent/BETA.htm

 

http://biomass.to/mycroft/bridge/MarekPrecision.html (sort of related concept definately not superprecison, but they use the BETA asking bid and alpha/gamma in the classical italian sense)

 

-----------------------

 

 

 

Ben

[csdenmark]

Ben I dont want to argue with you. Our aims are basically the same. I made a note of the version in Precision I prefer and I use. There are a lot of other good and official versions. Jannersten's version I have heard of but dont know and I dont have his book. A problem with super-precision is the exactly same version need to be used - else it is not worth using for super-precision.

 

OK - I have ACBL Encyclopedia, 5th edition, looks like 1994. Page 31 about BETA in Roman Club and Super Precision. Only Super Precision relevant here.

 

Asking bids in the SUPER PRECISION system concerned with the quality of a side suit after responder has made a positive response in notrump are also sometimes called Beta Asking Bids, although the difference in schedule of responses has led them toi be designated Delta Asking Bids in the version of Super Precision used by Giorgio Belladonna and Benito Garozzo. See SUPER PRECISION ASKING BIDS.

 

Going to that(page 486) it looks like they are mixing it up describing Gamma as Beta.

 

Ben I am using 1 version and 1 version only. That is Belladonna/Garozzo, "Precision and Super Precision bidding", G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York, 1975.

 

I dont know what Belladonna might have changed since then - but since 1995 I know for sure - nothing. Pity he reached the end of his journey then.

 

----------------------------------------

For Mike - I play several versions of precision. As impossible negative is a part of precision in Goren/Wei, Cinderella Team and Goren I use it when possible when I play acc. to those versions. Mostly with american partners.

 

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I have now added the links for the asking bids for WEB-sites. There are several modifications for repeatings. They will only come up with web-sites in those special situations they are used.

 

http://free.hostdepartment.com/c/csdenmark/BG/BGS-Ask.htm

[inquiry]

To mikestar...

 

I gave up impossible negative ages agofor unusual positives.

 

Ben

[inquiry]

BTW,

 

If you are interested in Belladona/Garrazo version of super precision, you don't have to wait 14 days for Claus to get it up on his webpage. Dan Neil has a very nice word document describing their system and the byline is by Belladonna, althought I can't say whether or not he wrote it.

 

A link to dan's page is

 

Dan's page <<--- search for superprecision.

 

And to Claus, I would not have bothered to point out that there is a difference in opinion in what "beta" means except for the way you phrased that I was wrong. I am clearly right as it refers to main stream superprecision in the US in the late 70's and early to mid 80's. I will also note, that Luis's definition of what a Beta bid is (which is different from the two definiations we have been discussing) has lots of support too, among them the excellent bridgeguy's page, which is very authoratitive in my mind. So people use the same greek letters to refer to different asking bids. The key is the asking bids used, and the responses generated, are identical or nearly identical. A rose by any of name, i guess.

 

Ben

[Flame]

mikestar, I read your page, and its lil hard to understand, I think the names are the least importent, the more importent is when to use which kind of asking, you can call it kukuriku. I think you should give a sequence to each name , like you did with the Delta.

now from what i understand 1c-1h-1s

is omega, then responder suppose to answer it, but then you say that 1c-1h-1s-2c/D/h/s are delta, i think you got a mistake there.

[Flame]

I understand now

[csdenmark]

Ben much confusions quick to come discussing detailed stuff across the atlantic. I downloaded the version from Dan's site. As the precision standard system by BG is was most will call superprecision it is a bit difficult. The version on Dan's site is not identic with the BG book. I really think the book is the basic also for US users as it is published in New York and today it is available - and as far as I know the only available version in US - via Amazon(where I bought) and the other big web-shop in California, Powells. Anyhow the english version I use is the version used by the italians I play with and Gerard Cohen too.

 

The version on Dan's site I noticed differs regarding asking after 1NT/2NT openings. Also Stayman is not used in superprecision only in standard version. In superprecision it is 'ask for description' with 2 different kind of responses whether opened NT or 1D. Taking a closer look it is very likely there will be more minor differences. Fun - I was unable to find BETA.

 

I stop here and play best possible with all who likes so. At least some chinese are interested in superprecision play I have noticed. I am sure we find an easy way for fun and communication.

[csdenmark]

If you want to give SUPERprecision a try I have now uploaded files to help you handling.

 

You navigate from here: http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/precision1.msnw

[the hog]

I don't even know why I am buying into this argument, but...

according to my Jannersten book:

 

Alpha is a suit ask eg 1C 1H 1S

Beta is a control ask - Ben is 100% correct - 1C 1H 1N

Gamma is a suit support ask 1C 1S 2S

 

Claus, you need to re read your notes!

 

Then of course there are Delta and Epsilon as well and others as Mike points out.

It is interesting that these have largely died out; I can think of only one top pair in the world that uses these. They do work well in the right circumstances, but have the disadvantage of emphasising strength rather than distribution. Most top pairs now use something like the following -

1C suit, new suit, cheapest suit to show a min, (8-12), and others to show shape with 13+ (eg 1C 1H 1S 2C)

 

RE impossible negatives: these never worked well; far better is to use 3C/D as 3 suiters.

 

Finally be aware that the Italians played precision because they were sponsored, not because they thought it was a great system. That is not to say the system is not effective; in its original form it is very dated, however. Its interesting that Garozzo and DuPont now play something quite different, and none of the present crop of Italians play Precision. Best precisioners around are probably Cohen-Berkowitz, Meckwell (though their system bears as much relationship to Precision as I do to Sean Penn)., Weichsel-Sonntag and Perunin-Gromov. The first three mentioned are US players and the last Russian

[csdenmark]

Ron the files are correct acc. to the Belladonna/Garozzo book. Of course there might be a few faults - with 360 web-sites for a system such is un-avoidable. Then they will be corrected when I am informed.

 

The word 'Epsilon' is not used. It might refer to some of the many modifications of TAB/CAB/OMEGA. I have no idea.

 

The sequence: 1♣ - 1♥♠ - 1NT is called 'special control asking bid' - the definitions you see here(page 214): http://free.hostdepartment.com/c/csdenmark/BG/BGS-CAB2.htm

 

The sequence: 1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ is OMEGA(supp. asking bid). The definitions you see here(page 213): http://free.hostdepartment.com/c/csdenmark/BG/BGS-OMEGA.htm

 

The sequence: 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♠ is TAB(Modified trump asking bid). The definitions you see here(page 154, same as standard version): http://free.hostdepartment.com/c/csdenmark/BG/BGS-TAB.htm

 

Regarding our former discussion in another thread regarding openings you will now notice I have added some clickable sites with opening requirements for each of the features acc. to book and not my interpretations.

 

I dont think it will be possible to play SUPERprecision Jannersteen vs. Belladonna/Garozzo for partnership. Standard versions will work I think but not SUPER.

 

It is new to me that Precision was used only/mainly due to sponsorships. On the other hand some reason you need to have for choosing 'A' instead of 'B'. So it is in life in general.

 

I also wonder why Garozzo have given up Precision approach completely - so if you have more information I would be very interested. I assume his reasons are a part of private sphere but if you know of public statements or so it will certainly be interesting.