after 1C-1D-1H-1S 2nd negative

[rbforster]

After a 1♦ negative response to a strong club, I like to play 1♥ artificial with extras (bids other than 1♥ deny extra strength by opener) and the 1♠ reply is a 2nd negative. This seems to be at least a somewhat popular method (rather than jumping to show strong hands over 1♣-1♦). My question is how best to continue after the 2nd negative:

 

1♣-1♦       strong (16+); negative (0-8)

1♥-1♠       stronger (19+); 2nd negative (0-4)

?

 

I currently use this scheme:

 

2♣            artificial and very strong 22+ (then using standard "strong 2C" methods)

1N            20-21

2♦♥♠,3♣   5+ nat and limited 19-21

 

The obvious downside to this method is that with some extra values (~19-21), hands with clubs must bid at the 3 level even if they might be only 5/4 with clubs and another suit.

 

If you play a 2nd negative, how do you handle this issue? I can think of a number of possibilities, and I hope you'll comment if you've played any of these or on which you think might be good/best:

 

- play something besides an artificial 2♣ to show very good hands

- bid 3♣ with only 5 opposite a 2nd negative and hope for the best

- make 3♣ show 6 by either bidding a semibalanced 1N (20-21) or a wide ranging 2♣ earlier (so 1♣-1♦-2♣ is 16-21 instead of 16-18).

- something else?

 

Thanks!

[gwnn]

We used to play everything was natural even 2♣, and every jump to the 3 level was natural unbalanced+GF. The situation seems so infrequent that it's OK to do it.

[hrothgar]

I recommend looking at schemes used after 1♠ double negative

 

For example, I know that Marston uses

 

1N as natural (and wide ranging)

2♣ as an artificial game force

2♦ as a canape transfer

2♥ as a canape transfer

[Free]

I recommend looking at schemes used after 1♠ double negative

 

For example, I know that Marston uses

 

1N as natural (and wide ranging)

2♣ as an artificial game force

2♦ as a canape transfer

2♥ as a canape transfer

I read in some of his documents of 2007 that he plays:

2♣ = 44+M

2♦ = 6M

2M = 5M, 4+m

And I think that there are some strong versions in 2♣ and/or 2♦. Has he switched back?

[hrothgar]

I recommend looking at schemes used after 1♠ double negative

 

For example, I know that Marston uses

 

1N as natural (and wide ranging)

2♣ as an artificial game force

2♦ as a canape transfer

2♥ as a canape transfer

I read in some of his documents of 2007 that he plays:

2♣ = 44+M

2♦ = 6M

2M = 5M, 4+m

And I think that there are some strong versions in 2♣ and/or 2♦. Has he switched back?

Its possible that this might have changed

 

If life ever calms down at work I'll try to figure things out...

[glen]

After a 1♦ negative response to a strong club, I like to play 1♥ artificial with extras (bids other than 1♥ deny extra strength by opener) and the 1♠ reply is a 2nd negative.  This seems to be at least a somewhat popular method (rather than jumping to show strong hands over 1♣-1♦).  My question is how best to continue after the 2nd negative: 

 

1♣-1♦       strong (16+); negative (0-8)

1♥-1♠       stronger (19+); 2nd negative (0-4)

?

...

I think for useful space reasons it would be better to put the 19-21 ♠s into 1♠ rebid to 1♦:

 

1♣-1♦       strong (16+); negative (0-8)

1♠ = 16-21 ♠s (this also "right-sides" more ♠ contracts)

 

Then one has a "free" 2♠ bid after this sequence:

 

1♣-1♦       strong (16+); negative (0-8)

1♥-1♠       stronger (19+); 2nd negative (0-4)

?

 

Now it depends on how much science you want to throw at this - in effect with 22+ you arrive at a situation like 2♣-2♥ (bust) in that style in standard, but unable to pass 2♥ - bids of 2♠+ can all show strong hands. One approach would be like suggested in the ACBL bulletin, after the 0-4 1♠ negative:

 

2♣/♦/♥: 19-22 (i.e. good but less than a GF), 5+

2♠: ♠s or balanced, GF

2NT: 22-24

3♣/♦/♥: natural GF

3♠: 4♥s & longer ♦s, GF

 

Another approach is re-map the 19-22s:

 

2♣: 22+

2♦: 4cM and longer minor, 19-21, 2M pass or correct

2♥: 5+♥s, 19-21

2♠: 5-4/4-5+ in minors, 19-21 - 2NT asks longer minor

3♣/♦: 19-21, 6+ minor

 

Likewise:

2♣: 4cM and longer minor, 19-21, 2♦ asks major

2♦: Any GF

2♥: 5+♥s, 19-21

2♠: 5-4/4-5+ in minors, 19-21 - 2NT asks longer minor

2NT: 22-24

3♣/♦: 19-21, 6+ minor

 

Various options there, some good, some not-so-nice.

 

Another approach is have 2♣ do some double duty, and employ transfers, to get extra bidding space (not to transfer, since all 4 suits already bid):

 

2♣: 19-21 5+♦s or any GF or 22+ balanced

2♦: 5+♥s, 19-21

2♥: 4♥s & longer ♣s, 19-21

2♠: 4♠s and longer ♣s, 19-21

2NT: 4♦s and longer ♣s, 19-21

3♣: 6+♣s, no 4cM, 19-21

 

or just the 2♣ transfer:

 

2♣: 19-21 5+♦s or any GF (22+ if unbalanced)

2♦: 5+♣s and 4 of a red suit, 19-21

2♥: 5+♥s, 19-21

2♠: 4♠s and longer ♣s, 19-21

2NT: 22-24

3♣: 6+♣s, no 4cM, 19-21

 

and if you want 1♠ to be less than 19:

 

2♣: 19-21 5+♦s or any GF

2♦: 5+♣s and 4 of another suit, 19-21

2♥: 5+♥s, 19-21

2♠: 5+♠s, 19-21

2NT: 22-24

3♣: 6+♣s, no 4cM, 19-21

[Impact]

After the sequence 1C- 1D

1H- 1S (0-4)

?

 

1NT= 19+ to22-

2C = art GF with full relay responses a la version symmetric modified

2D/H/S= nat encouraging but nf

2NT= C as above

3C= 5+5+ Rank

3D= 5+5+ Colour

3H = 5+H & 5+C nf but highly encouraging

3S = 5+S & 5+ D as above

3NT= T

 

regards

[cwiggins]

One variation would be to borrow the Romex sequences after 1NT-2C auctions.

 

Over 1C-1D; 1H-1S:

1NT = 20-22 HCP

2C = 22+ GF (other than 1NT, all others shows 19-21)

2D = ask for 4CM

2M = 5+ in bid major

2N = 5/4 in minors

3m = 6+

3H = 5+/5+ in majors, 4 losers

3S = 5+/5+ in majors, GF

3N = 5+5+ in minors;

4m = 5-5 in majors, 3 cards in m, void in om

4M = 1-suited

 

 

You should carefully address the continuations other than the 1S relay: 16-18 HCP hands are more frequent than 19+, and good part scores can be key.

 

Moscito (pre-semi-positive responses) had some elegant continuations.

 

The Viking Club has something simpler:

1C-1D

?

1S = 5+ spades or 4 spades and 5+ minor

1N = 17-19 (if you are playing a 14-16 NT)

2C/2D = 5+, natural

2H = 5+ hearts, normally unbalanced

2S = puppet to 2NT after which:

... 3C = 6+ clubs and 4 hearts

... 3D = 6+ diamonds and 4 hearts

... 3H = 6+ hearts and 4 spades

2NT = 5440 with 5 hearts

3C = 5+ clubs and 5 hearts

3D = 5+ diamonds and 5 hearts

3H = 6+ hearts and 5 spades

3S = 9 tricks with spades as trumps

3N = To play

[akhare]

Do check out the continuations in the Toad Club -- they are an impressive 5 pages long:

 

Toad Club

[dake50]

Not in 1H are hands where opener can bid to show which Q/J are wanted. Eg. 2C =S+C so only single/void in red or red A is valuable, but any black honor. Raise on 4-7 adjusted.

[rbforster]

I think for useful space reasons it would be better to put the 19-21 ♠s into 1♠ rebid to 1♦:

 

1♣-1♦       strong (16+); negative (0-8)

1♠ = 16-21 ♠s (this also "right-sides" more ♠ contracts)

 

Then one has a "free" 2♠ bid...

 

Another approach is have 2♣ do some double duty, and employ transfers, to get extra bidding space (not to transfer, since all 4 suits already bid):

 

2♣: 19-21 5+♦s or any GF or 22+ balanced

Hi Glen. Thanks for all the detailed suggestions. I agree with you in general that the cheapest bids over 1♦ should include a wider range of hand types along the useful space lines.

 

I wasn't entirely comfortable with some methods I've seen where 2N or somesuch shows 4+/5+ minors. This seems pushy to me when you're only 54, and having such a bid with 5/5+ is fine but doesn't solve the problem of what to do with the 4=5 minors hands. Here's a proposal that seems better than what I have currently anyway, at least in terms of how it treats the 5♣ hands. Along the useful space lines, I've added the troublesome hand types to the cheapest bids 1♠, 1N, and 2♣ after 1♣-1♦:

 

1♣-1♦:

 

1♥ art 19+, many (but not all) hands extra values

1♠ art but usually 4+♠. Min H+m, S+m, or majors. Minimum with 6+ spades. Some special distributional hands including 4♠/6♣ extras

1N 16-19 semibal shapes include (31)(54), 22(54), and all 4441's and 5332's.

2♣ 5+. Min hands with 6+♣ or extra values hands with 5♣/4X

2♦ 6+ natural min

2♥ 6+ natural min

2♠+ special distributional hands, including 4♥/6♣ extras and 5/5 minors min

 

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠, 3♣ is 6+ extras and no 4cM.

 

Note that additional hands have been added to 2♣ as well, but by including the minimum club 2-suiters (4M/5♣) in 1♠ means that 2♣ will either have extra shape (6+, could be 6-4) or extra strength (~19-21 instead of just ~16-18). Then over an asking bid of 2♦ you can separate things pretty well:

 

1♣-1♦-2♣-2♦ ~4-7 asking bid, ala precision 2♣-2♦:

 

2M   4M ~16-18 (also with 6+ clubs)

2N   6+ inv (~18-19), no major

3♣   6+ min (~16-17), no major

3♦   4♦ max ~19-21 (with exactly 5♣)

3M   4M max ~19-21 (with exactly 5♣)

 

If you think about including the hand with xx45 and minimum strength in the above 2♣, you don't really have enough space to show all the minimum hands below 3♣ and still allow the long club hands to show if they'd accept partner's invitation. This is why I moved the xx45 hands to 1N (which hopefully causes fewer problems).

[glen]

... Along the useful space lines, I've added the troublesome hand types to the cheapest bids 1♠, 1N, and 2♣ after 1♣-1♦:

 

1♣-1♦:

 

1♥ art 19+, many (but not all) hands extra values

1♠ art but usually 4+♠.  Min H+m, S+m, or majors.  Minimum with 6+ spades.  Some special distributional hands including 4♠/6♣ extras

1N 16-19 semibal shapes include (31)(54), 22(54), and all 4441's and 5332's.

2♣ 5+. Min hands with 6+♣ or extra values hands with 5♣/4X

2♦ 6+ natural min

2♥ 6+ natural min

2♠+ special distributional hands, including 4♥/6♣ extras and 5/5 minors min

...

I like your idea of expanding the 1♣-1♦;-2♣ range. I would not distort 1♠ or 1NT beyond natural - perhaps something like:

 

1♣-1♦;-?

1♥: 19+ except not 19-21 unbalanced with 4+♠s and/or 5+♣s

1♠: 4+♠s, 16-21, may have longer second suit, not balanced

1NT: 16-18 (or whatever range is necessary)

2♣: 5+♣s, fewer than 4♠s, 16-21

2♦: 5+♦s, fewer than 4♠s, 16-18

2♥: 5+♥s, fewer than 4♠s, 16-18

2♠+: shapely hands