Format of Main Lobby

[skrshawk]

BBO has grown considerably since the early days, especially seeing that we started from the ground up to make what is here today.  In such, I have a question I would like to pose to everyone in the interest of getting your feedback on the subject.

 

To handle the influx of new members it has been devised splitting off the main lobby into seperate major bridge clubs based on skill level.  The standing idea would be to have a beginners, intermediates, advanced, and experts clubs.  Nothing would be forcing any particular user to use any particular club.  What this would do is help arrange games of the skill level of choice of the table hosts and cut down on the open lobby broadcasting by making ones of no pertinence invisible.

 

I welcome your comments for/against this idea and remind everyone that this is anything but the sure direction - this is only an interest gathering informal survey and an opportunity for all of you to help us develop the idea (and make BBO what you'd like to see it!)

 

Thanks,

John

[inquiry]

John,

 

As I am sure you are aware, the MSN Zone has this split room design, with rooms for matchpoint and Imps at three different "skill" levels. Each room with a limited number of tables (and thanks goes to Fred for that site too, as it got much better after he reworked their original software).

 

But, as any user of that site knows, the competitive rooms are assigning as "novice, advanced, or expert." It seems true that the novice rooms (which are mostly empty) are populated with primarily novices, the other two rooms have as much variability in ability as we see here in the BBO. I don't know if this is because people honestly don't know how to evaluate their own ability or if players of lesser ability (such as myself  ;D) listen to comments by people like Fred who suggested in this BBO forum that one way to "REACH[iNG] FOR THE STARS" (thread by lestat) is "to play against the best possible opposition." But as long as selection is based upon self-selecting criteria, I doubt that room division is going to help with what I think the problem you are trying to address.

 

Now if spliting into multiple rooms speed up the responsiveness of the system or something (the BBO is still very responsive as such sites go)... then that would be a great idea. Or splitting into Tournament/Team event rooms (as Fred says is a top priority), then great. But to split to try to self select players, sadly, will probably not be nearly as successful as you hope.

 

Perhaps instead of the table description that the host can provide describing the nature of the individual table, a color system for tables (where the table host name is a unique color  to suggest the minimum playing skill requested) would allow quick, and easy selection to meet the same need. This would be similar to the type of suggestion made by Dwayne Hoffman and my good friend Vikicata in the convention cards(cc)" thread, but instead of "systems" allowed at the table, it would requested minimum playing skill level.  

[fred]

John,

 

As I am sure you are aware, the MSN Zone has this split room design, with rooms for matchpoint and Imps at three different "skill" levels. Each room with a limited number of tables (and thanks goes to Fred for that site too, as it got much better after he reworked their original software).

 

But, as any user of that site knows, the competitive rooms are assigning as "novice, advanced, or expert." It seems true that the novice rooms (which are mostly empty) are populated with primarily novices, the other two rooms have as much variability in ability as we see here in the BBO. I don't know if this is because people honestly don't know how to evaluate their own ability or if players of lesser ability (such as myself  ;D) listen to comments by people like Fred who suggested in this BBO forum that one way to "REACH[iNG] FOR THE STARS" (thread by lestat) is "to play against the best possible opposition." But as long as selection is based upon self-selecting criteria, I doubt that room division is going to help with what I think the problem you are trying to address.

 

Now if spliting into multiple rooms speed up the responsiveness of the system or something (the BBO is still very responsive as such sites go)... then that would be a great idea. Or splitting into Tournament/Team event rooms (as Fred says is a top priority), then great. But to split to try to self select players, sadly, will probably not be nearly as successful as you hope.

 

Perhaps instead of the table description that the host can provide describing the nature of the individual table, a color system for tables (where the table host name is a unique color  to suggest the minimum playing skill requested) would allow quick, and easy selection to meet the same need. This would be similar to the type of suggestion made by Dwayne Hoffman and my good friend Vikicata in the convention cards(cc)" thread, but instead of "systems" allowed at the table, it would requested minimum playing skill level.  

 

Establishing clubs within bbo for players of different skill levels would not have any impact on the speed of the software.

 

I agree that most bridge players are not realistic about their own skill levels and that creating clubs for "intermediates", "advanced", "experts", may not be effective. The one exception to this relates to novices. Most novices know who they are and many novices would like to play against other novices as they find it intimidating to play against better players.

 

We may put some kind of better method for having table hosts specify "minimum player level" when a table is created, but I doubt this will happen soon.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Lestat]

:)

 

Different rooms for various skill levels?  Yes, let's do it.  Consider the future growth of BB to two, three, or four times the current number of players.  How do we manage several hundred tables in play simultaneously in a way that's convenient for us as well as the administrators?

 

At present, the self-identified skill levels of players is a concern.  I suspect those who label their skills higher than their true performance abilities actually are do so because of ego.  It might be better to simply identify not our skill levels, but let us choose which room we "prefer" to play in.  If we have several rooms to jump into, then why even bother having any kind of labeling system for our skill levels?  Let's consider labeling the room difficulties from 1 to 6, with 1 being the easiest and 6 the most difficult.  And I like the term "room" better than "club."

 

So, one advantage of providing seperate rooms would be to completely eliminate the need for self-labeling ourselves.  At tournaments, we provide "rooms," aka events, for people to select, and don't ask them to walk around with "NOVICE" signs hanging from their necks.  That said, I'd still like to see players awarded Stars as we are currently doing.

 

If we don't go the "room" route, then I would be in favor of color-coding the tables or using a 1-6 number to show degree of difficulty preferred.

 

Best, Jim

 

:P

[Mike]

Recurrent problem. When people congregate in masses one can not expect disciplined behaviour from each individual. The system shall be such as providing enjoyable environment for the majority and reducing negative experiments as much as possible.

 

From the above point of view BBO is far the best in my experience, thank to Fred and all his aides.

 

Nevertheless, the popularity groth of BBO needs to be addressed sooner then one can expect. I just ask the system designers not to count on any self classification scheme when so many different interest collide.

 

Look those who classify themselfs as "expert" in the present standard profile scheme. Except those who are given the yellow star, almost no exception, these experts are on a weakish intermediate level, if they have any. I suspect some secondary purpose behind these unjust selfappointments. In that category almost nobody uses the standard BBO criteria. The category "world class" is used as a joke by many! All of this for underlining the human factor while making system for public use.

 

Look those who request expert or adv+++ opponents or partners, but they are close to being a beginner.

 

Look other web sites empty rooms that are not named with the highest denomination.

 

Look what disturbances leaves behind an undisciplined driver overtaking a queue that was quite disciplined till that point.

 

What I want to point out is the extreme difficulty to make a system better while the participants may have random attitude.

 

By and large I suggest not to change anything basic on BBO until the next two main version experiences. Many of the present problems are addressed already in the planned modifications.

 

Plus an old adage: Do not fix, which is not broken. BBO is as good as it gets, make it Zone like will not help.

 

If screen size is or will be the problem, let's make from necessity BBO1, BBO2, BBO3, etc. congruent windows or rooms showing only free spaces in each.

 

In spite of the fact that the same thing may cause sometimes hard time to everybody, the freedom of choice and the lack of any rating system are major contributors to BBO success. To subdivide BBO to levelled rooms or create rated tables are not good ideas!

 

Just to repeat, I expect most of the difficulties we found so far will be eliminated by the planned modifications.

 

I suspect, two versions from now we will forget this discussion.

[hallway]

I agree that there should be some division of the Main Bridge Club but please don’t split it into four/five defined sections.

 

It has been said on here that to improve ones play one needs to play with persons of better ability.  There’s no arguing with that.   But finding those of greater ability content to play with those of us of lesser ability is not easy.

 

I kibitz a great deal on BBO (one can learn a good deal from doing that too)  but only ever play when I can prearrange a game with a player to partner me who I know knows the system I am (hopefully ! )  learning.   The greater the skills of the Opps the better.

 

On one magical occasion my partner (a Senior in our Live Bridge Club, kindly giving me some practice) and I were joined by two  whose profiles showed their skill levels as “Private”  .  It very soon became obvious that they were indeed Experts.  They stayed at my table for at least a dozen hands (I will be eternally grateful for that , three would have been generous) , gave no quarter (and I thank them for that ), were courteous & friendly throughout and when they left did so in good order.   That day I learned the Power of a Partnership Defense , watching I quite forgot whose side I was on !! – awesome.  That day too I saw the reality that Bidding IS having a legal conversation with your Partner and when you are both ‘talking’ the same language it is as clear as crystal.   My partner was equally in awe of their skills.

 

If you split the Main Bridge Club into several defined sections  that could never happen.   I would always gravitate to the Beginner/ Novice/Intermediate  area and players of their skills would forever head for the Advanced/Expert sections.  Never the twain to meet !!

 

I think too you would get even more dissentions – at present a person’s skill level is merely a generalisation on their personal profile  ( subject to change according to their mood  -  I played against one defined as ‘expert’ in the morning who had slumped to a self defined ‘intermediate’ that same evening  J )  That is quite , quite different from choosing to enter a “Room” that has a defined Skill Level..

 

Conversely it would be great for the Beginner/ Novice/Intermediate to have a ‘safe’ place to easily locate like skilled players to relax and enjoy a game without superior skilled players jumping in and out like yo-yos  :).  Had a ‘Expert’ recently come and go then come back again !! to ask us “how can I find a fellow Expert to play with ?’   I suggested reading the profiles, I thought later I should have told him to start a table of his own and to invite just experts to join him – hope he figured that out for himself !.   So I guess the problem is the same whichever end of the scale one is.

 

Initially I would suggest you try splitting the Main Bridge Club into TWO.  

 

The Informal Lounge -    a place to relax and enjoy a non competitive game, to practice/hone ones skills, to meet new people

Most Beginners/Novices/ Intermediates would gravitate to such an area but at the same time those with superior skills would not be ‘slumming’ if they too chose to play there (even the best of the best must have days when they aren’t feeling too well but would still like to play – here they could do so without the pressure of having to ‘perform’ and could give as well as get pleasure from assisting we who want to learn)  Also whatever ones skill level there will/may be times when one wants to play ‘socially’

 

The Competitive Lounge - a place to put your bridge skills to the test …….;

Most Advanced/Experts would gravitate to such an area but at the same time those of us lesser mortals who are emboldened are not precluded from putting our ‘best foot forward’.    Here, though,  there would be an expectation that,  while there are no points/prizes on the line,  all will be making a serious effort .

 

Look forward to reading what others think

Maureen  :P

[skrshawk]

I particulary like hallway's ideas of seperate clubs for informal and competitive play.  While Bridge Base is about educational bridge we seem to be holding our own in the world of competitive bridge as well.  Keep the ideas coming, I'm still very openminded about how to make all concerned happy :).

 

Thanks,

John

[eyhung]

I second Maureen's excellent suggestion for splitting lounges into competitive vs. social.  In addition to the many advantages she cited, I believe the "tabletalk" problem discussed on another thread would also be solved -- people would expect more tabletalk at a social table and less at a competitive one.  

 

Eugene Hung

[JRG]

I have a suggestion based on reading other people's posts. The idea is to manage large numbers of online players.

 

In the Main Bridge Club (or any club/room for that matter), have a way to select:

 

 - Show all tables

 - Show tables with empty seats

 - Show only tables in progress

 

The second selection would facilitate people looking for a table to play at;

the third for those looking to kibitz.