Alerted Skip Bid

[blackshoe]

In the WBF, as far as I can tell, there is in tempo and out of tempo. After a skip bid, you're required to bid out of tempo. There is no definition for "more out of tempo".

Everywhere there is "in tempo" and "out of tempo". What constitutes one or the other is not a fixed number of seconds, but depends on several factors - including a regulation which requires a pause for a certain amount of time is certain circumstances.

 

If my RHO makes a skip bid, I concern myself with two things: complying with the "skip bid regulation", and what my best action should be. I don't care what RHO does with the stop card — although if he tries to shove it up my nose I will ask the director to explain Law 74A2 to him.

[mycroft]

In England, there are arguments over the Stop card that go:

 

"I put the stop card out and made my bid. After I put it away, he thought for a while before calling."

"True. But he put the stop card away after 4 seconds, not 10".

"No, I didn't"

....

 

In the U.S., there are people who argue about the length of the hesitation - including one who literally stood on his chair screaming for the director about my hesitation (which I literally had no idea about. It took my partner saying 'he made a jump bid, didn't he?' for me to clue in to what was going on; that's how internalized my 'pause after skip bids' clock is) because, frankly, nobody (except me, and a very few others) pauses the full 10 seconds routinely. I've trained my partners, but they still are about 4. And yes, that means I know they have a problem well within their 10 allowed seconds, but it's still better than 90% of my opponents.

 

SSDD (apologies for the implied profanity) applies.

[NickRW]

IMO this regulation about skip bids is - well just weird.

 

1) It is just as common for someone to have a problem after an ordinary bid as a jump bid. So I question the appropriateness of the regulation in the first place.

 

2) In my experience people only pay lip service to the 10 second thing - the stop card comes out and is often whipped away again after what can barely be 2 seconds - quite often immediately.

 

Nobody seems to care where I play.

 

Nick

[CSGibson]

IMO this regulation about skip bids is - well just weird.

 

1) It is just as common for someone to have a problem after an ordinary bid as a jump bid.  So I question the appropriateness of the regulation in the first place.

Yes, but an experienced bridge player should be able to make a plan that anticipates low-level actions by opponents and partner to some degree. Adding that to the fact that jump bids, by their very nature, force you to try to describe your hand in the most efficient manner in order to take advantage of what little space you have left, and you can see why someone should be entitled to take more time over a skip bid than over a direct overcall. I appreciate the protection allotted to me and my partners.

 

RE: Jdonn's concern with stop cards: it sounds like you have been treated poorly. I haven't had opponents do anything more than lay the stop card on the table next to their bid, I can see how someone invading your space with the card would be annoying, and I would probably mention something to the person about the proper way to use that card if it really was bothersome.

 

And I know that would provoke some of you maniacs out there to use it wrongly just to try to put me on tilt. Jerks, you probably coffee-house and use hesitation blackwood, too. (I can't find the sarcasm font, does anyone know where it is?)

[JoAnneM]

Isn't it true that the timing should start after the bid, not when the stop card is put away? The stop card actually should be put away before the bid, in my opinion. Put out the stop card, put it away, then make your bid.

[blackshoe]

Precisely how to use the stop card is a matter of regulation - and different places have different regulations. For example, in the EBU one puts out the stop card, makes one's bid, leaves the stop card out for approximately ten seconds, and then puts it away. In the ACBL, one puts out the stop card, makes one's bid, and then picks up the stop card immediately. There may be other rules in other places.

 

NB: in the ACBL, use of the stop card is optional. Since it seems to make no difference to either players or directors whether it is used, or whether it is used properly, I've stopped bothering with it.

[skjaeran]

The regulation on HOW to use the stop card in Norway is exactly the same as in the EBU. Both as a player and TD I strongly prefer the way we do it than any other procedure I've seen or heard about.

 

Our regulation differ from the EBU in one respect; in competitive auctions we use the stop card before making any non-pass call from 3♣ and onward (if both opponents pass in one round of bidding, it isn't a competitive auction anymore).

 

Of course lots of players over here - as everywhere else - doesn't follow correct procedure. Too bad for them - they're in trouble in any UI case in auctions where a stop card has been/should have been used.

[JoAnneM]

What irks me the most is conversations like this - "Sorry partner I didn't notice your jump": "Oh, sorry partner, I should have used the Stop card".

[matmat]

What irks me the most is conversations like this - "Sorry partner I didn't notice your jump": "Oh, sorry partner, I should have used the Stop card".

:( :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[mycroft]

what's worse is (and it's second-hand evidence, but second hand from the person who had to rule on it, so I trust it) "Of course it was strong; if it were weak, I would have used the Stop Card!" immediately followed by "Director, Please" (let's pretend the opponents are polite)...

[JoAnneM]

Is it legal for a club to ban the use of stop cards? Can we just take them out of the bidding boxes? I am a director but too lazy to look this up. I am pretty sure we can waive some of these laws.

[skjaeran]

Is it legal for a club to ban the use of stop cards? Can we just take them out of the bidding boxes? I am a director but too lazy to look this up. I am pretty sure we can waive some of these laws.

That's not law, but regulation. I' guess a club in the ACBL could ban the use of stop cards.

[blackshoe]

A club can certainly ban stop cards. They could even have a regulation that said "LHO of a skip bidder is expected to pause 10 seconds before selecting a call, while giving at least the appearance of thinking about his upcoming action, regardless of the lack of a skip bid warning". Whether a club would actually enforce such a regulation is another question, of course.

[mycroft]

I would not want to play in a club that banned stop cards, because they are as much of a habit as breathing, and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to break the habit when I played there. Same goes, only more so, for Alerts, and I'm glad the "can ask to have no Alerts" regulation died a natural death (of course, I both play Precision, so Alert A Lot, and know my system, so don't use the Alerts to keep me on track, so for me there's no worries. I also know pairs who DO use the Alerts to keep on track, and I play Vic Mitchell's Nuttin' Defence against them :-)

 

As a TD, I would not want a club to have such a regulation, because when their players go to tournaments, they'll have to deal with it, and have whatever issues go with that unfamiliarity (which is the same reason I don't like "can look at own CC in club games", but less so as the problem is less).

 

As a member of the ACBL, I wish we would deal with the problem of why this is a question in the first place, which is because 99.9+% of players ignore it anyway, and we don't nail them when their habitual ignorance of skip bid regulations make it screamingly clear when they *do* have a problem over the 3D preempt.

[JoAnneM]

My club recently bought all new bidding card replacement sets from Baron Bridge Supply. As you know these are quite expensive. The Stop Card is smaller than any other card in the box. It lurks down there shorter than the Double card and is the same color. So, it slows down the game while players fumble for it, and you certainly cannot leave laying out on the table for when you might need it. It is just a big pain in the neck.

 

And, I agree about following all the regulations. We have never waived any laws or regulations. We even require the NT announcement and most clubs around here do not.

[blackshoe]

you certainly cannot leave laying out on the table for when you might need it.

Whyinhell not?

 

I suspect that the bidding cards you bought were designed for the "trio" style boxes, not the big orange "standard" (and cheapest, iirc) boxes. The trio boxes have a separate place for the stop and alert cards (there's another model that does too, but I forget its name).

[blackshoe]

I had a phone conversation with the "clubs" people in Memphis a couple of years ago. The "official" position regarding regulations seems to be that clubs can make whatever regulations they like, but they're supposed to publish them so that the players know what they are. Clubs around here don't do that, with the result that there are occasionally inconsistent rulings. The de facto position of Memphis regarding club regulations seems to be that so long as the sanction fees are paid on time, nobody cares what clubs do.

[JoAnneM]

The reason you can't leave them out is that it would be a stop card for every bid!

[mycroft]

If I'm guessing correctly, you got the "Bid Buddy" boxes, like I have (but my club does not), like these. If that is the case, there's a slot in the cover (behind the bid cards when the box is set up), which is actually very convenient for holding the "Stop" and "Alert" cards. I'm pretty certain it's there matching the notch in the bottom so that the pairs of boxes don't slide over each other in transport, but it is convenient.

 

However, when I do play Precision, I take out the Alert card the first time, and turn it over and put it back by my box, rather than in it; it's going to come out again (I Put It Back after the round; that's how Alert cards get lost). You could do that with the Stop Card as well, but plan on having a bunch of them go missing/double up/...

[blackshoe]

Those are the boxes I was thinking of. B)

 

Paragraph two of the ACBL Bidding Box regulation, regarding the stop card, says

Place the stop card so that LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced in the bidding box.

If you place the stop card face down next to your bidding box after using it, I hardly think an opponent (or anyone else) could claim you've used the stop card for every bid. Granted, it's a deviation from the correct procedure specified in the regulation, but I don't see it becoming a problem.

 

The ACBL Codification (see the web site) says

For sanctioned games at clubs, the club may elect to discourage it's [sic; the stop card] use and require no mandated pause.

 

Given that the LHO of a skp bidder routinely ignores the use (or non-use) of the stop card, and that TDs rarely, if ever, do anything about breaks in tempo after a skip bid, I do not see how the regulation's stated goal of protecting the rights of both sides is met. Therefore, I favor not using it at all.

[barmar]

I would not want to play in a club that banned stop cards, because they are as much of a habit as breathing, and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to break the habit when I played there.

If they removed the cards from the boxes, it seems like it would be even more impossible to continue the habit when you play there. Do you think you'd go into withdrawal, jonesing for a stop card? Or would you just find yourself unable to make jump bids?

[matmat]

I would not want to play in a club that banned stop cards, because they are as much of a habit as breathing, and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to break the habit when I played there.

If they removed the cards from the boxes, it seems like it would be even more impossible to continue the habit when you play there. Do you think you'd go into withdrawal, jonesing for a stop card? Or would you just find yourself unable to make jump bids?

at that point you bring your own.

[joshs]

I personally hate the stop cards and refuse to use them. The main point is that there are many tempo sensitive auctions, and only some of them are associated with skip bids. And some auctions involving skip bids are not tempo sensitive:

 

e.g. 1N-3N, 2S-4N

 

On the other hand, 1H-P-2H-(3D)-? is very tempo sensitive, as is most competitive auctions and its in appropriate to ever bid too fast in those auctions. I think its rediculous to pull out the stop card on 1N-3N and not on the above competative auctions.

 

Almost all suprise bid auctions are somewhat tempo sensitive, although if you have the auction:

1S-P-3N(10-12, 4S, singleton somewhere)-P

4C(where is it?)-4D-?

You probably will have to think about what bids mean, so a tank does not really carry UI.

 

This is a complicated subject, which the binary use of a stop card doesn't really solve the key problems...

 

Thats my 2 cents.

[JoAnneM]

Can we go back to the original post? My understanding is that the stop card is used to require an opponent to bid "in tempo" after a jump bid. This is not a finite number of seconds. This is to mostly prevent quick passes.

 

I believe this is confirmed in a NABC appeals case I read in a Bulletin (I don't remember which one) where the 10 seconds was considered a hesitation that carried UI, and that 5 seconds would have been considered "in tempo".

 

Does anyone else recall this?

[skjaeran]

I personally hate the stop cards and refuse to use them. The main point is that there are many tempo sensitive auctions, and only some of them are associated with skip bids. And some auctions involving skip bids are not tempo sensitive:

 

e.g. 1N-3N

1N-3N can easily be a tempo sensitive auction. As has been proven time after time. I've been there myself (or my partner rather), holding a hand with a strong major suit, and you have to decide whether to double (for partner to lead his shorter major) or to save.

 

 

On the other hand, 1H-P-2H-(3D)-? is very tempo sensitive, as is most competitive auctions and its in appropriate to ever bid too fast in those auctions.

 

Those auctions DO require use of the stop card in Norway, but in no other Regulating Authority, as far as I know.