Polish Club on BBO

[mycroft]

Ken, if you're playing with pickup, I agree completely. However, it's the same when you play against my Precision Club/Nebulous Diamond/Kamikaze NT system; or against my 4-suit "any" weak 2s, playing EHAA; or my weak NT. I don't think there's a "default" agreement you can use playing pickup, and when it happens you won't know what partner thinks; which is why I want a "looking for a pair" marker for BBO - I don't think it's fair to play the systems I play against a pair of pickups.

 

But there's a difference between "there's a great possibility of misunderstanding if we get a PC auction without warning" and "1 Polish Club is *so* different from 1 Majors5-Diamonds4 Club that the defence I use against the latter is insufficient [mdf: not inefficient] for the former".

 

Sure, there's a better defence to PC than what you play over the M5,D4 club. There's very likely a better defence to M5, D4 club than what you play over it (or what you play over M5, D4-unless-4432 C or even Acol "could be 3" club.) That doesn't really matter unless you're up against the WBF in Shanghai, and you suddenly find that opening an 18-count in the shortest suit is "natural" but 1C on the "okay, 5% of the time it's strong, and may not even have 2 clubs" is not.

 

I don't like defending against 1C-1D; 1H "natural" - "so, which of the many hands can bid it? is it the weak NT? could it be a x4x5 15 count? Could it be strong? I don't care if it's 15-way, but tell me what you know about it, assuming I know as little about it as you know about my 1C-1D; 1H auction." For Gerben, it doesn't matter, because he knows WJ. But I don't. And that takes us full circle, doesn't it?

[ASkolnick]

Here is also why you should allow it anyway:

 

The only way to develop systems/defenses to it, is by letting it be played. Once people get more exposed to the idea, the easier it will become to defend it. I am sure when stayman first came out, people probably thought it should be banned. But now that there is exposure to it, you can play double shows cards, double shows clubs or whatever your favorite treatment is.

 

The problem with BBO would be what is standard in the US, may not be standard all over the world. So, why should we not be able to expose ourselves to something different, so the next time we play it, we can say...

 

"Oh, they played the Hooti-Nani diamond, showing odd amount of points. Its a good idea to jam up there auction since they have trouble getting the shape out over interference." Sure, you may get bad boards the 1st or 2nd time you play it, but once you experience things you will be a lot more comfortable playing against it.

 

It took me a while to figure out a good defense against a Weak NT, but eventually we did because we were able to play against enough Weak NT's.

[Cascade]

Not many Poles do, or if they do, it's not adequate when it comes to explaining certain bids in detail.

I disagree with the last part of this statement.

 

Very little English is required to explain e.g.

 

12-14 BAL or 15-17 ♣ or 18+ (or whatever fits the bid)

 

requires very little English.

 

Even BAL could be removed and replaced with 4-3-3-3, 4-4-3-2, 5-3-3-2 and the "or"s replaced by commas or semi-colons.

 

The player knows that an explanation or alert is required they should be able to write one even with very little English.

 

Even if Polish 1♣ is not alertable in Poland it is the sort of thing that I would alert online. I alert far more online that what is required by the NZ Bridge or any other alerting regulations.

 

Having said all of this I don't believe the Poles are any worse than anyone else at alerting.

 

When I am directing every time a 4=4=3=2 hand comes up I can be sure to get calls from tables where natural players who have opened a short 1♣. Of course this just points to all of the other times when they open 1♣ and don't alert but noone notices because they happen to have more than two clubs.

 

My experience as a player is that it is often more difficult getting information (inferences and style issues) from the natural players than it is from those who play more complex or artificial systems. Even that though is far from universal - I can think of an example of a pair that I play against relatively regularly who play an unusual system from whom it is very hard to get complete answers.

 

Perhaps the less experienced Polish club players who are used to not alerting 1♣ just need some education that online this bid needs alerting.

[Gerben42]

My experience as a player is that it is often more difficult getting information (inferences and style issues) from the natural players than it is from those who play more complex or artificial systems.

 

From an other part of the world, I can confirm this statement.

[kenberg]

Ken, if you're playing with pickup, I agree completely. However, it's the same when you play against my Precision Club/Nebulous Diamond/Kamikaze NT system; or against my 4-suit "any" weak 2s, playing EHAA; or my weak NT. I don't think there's a "default" agreement you can use playing pickup, and when it happens you won't know what partner thinks; which is why I want a "looking for a pair" marker for BBO - I don't think it's fair to play the systems I play against a pair of pickups.

 

But there's a difference between "there's a great possibility of misunderstanding if we get a PC auction without warning" and "1 Polish Club is *so* different from 1 Majors5-Diamonds4 Club that the defence I use against the latter is insufficient [mdf: not inefficient] for the former".

 

Sure, there's a better defence to PC than what you play over the M5,D4 club. There's very likely a better defence to M5, D4 club than what you play over it (or what you play over M5, D4-unless-4432 C or even Acol "could be 3" club.) That doesn't really matter unless you're up against the WBF in Shanghai, and you suddenly find that opening an 18-count in the shortest suit is "natural" but 1C on the "okay, 5% of the time it's strong, and may not even have 2 clubs" is not.

 

I don't like defending against 1C-1D; 1H "natural" - "so, which of the many hands can bid it? is it the weak NT? could it be a x4x5 15 count? Could it be strong? I don't care if it's 15-way, but tell me what you know about it, assuming I know as little about it as you know about my 1C-1D; 1H auction." For Gerben, it doesn't matter, because he knows WJ. But I don't. And that takes us full circle, doesn't it?

I pretty much agree with all of this.♠

[NickRW]

Yes. If we could send the BBO Forum in a time machine back to the 1980s and change 'Polish Club' to 'Precision Club' then the discussion would be about the same....<snip>

That still happens - and you don't have to be playing a different basic system either. I play what is essentially Acol in Acol land - but with quite a lot of gadgets that are not common - a few (not all by a long way) people clearly get upset/confused and wish we would go away - it is mainly older people - and add in a few rather middle class, not so old ladies.

 

Nick