Polish Club on BBO

[jtfanclub]

From my experiences as a TD on BBO, I have had very few cases of MI, and I do allow Polish Club in my tourneys. From my impression, Polish players are about average when it comes to not alerting bids, so I think it would be unfair to say that they don't alert their bids properly.

 

In BBO, as far as I can tell, it's because we can't get the little buggers to alert. It's not alertable in Poland, and they don't alert it on BBO.

 

This wouldn't be so bad, but virtually all of them have "SAYC or WJ200x" on their profile, and they don't have a convention card. So they open a club (not alerted), and later it turns out they had a doubleton club, so the director gets called, and there's lots of grief. Off hand, I can't remember any case where there was obvious damage from the club opening being a doubleton, but wow do people scream about it.

 

Should I post a link where I say that I don't even think most of PC should be alertable, as long as they announce their system?

 

It's actually the whining I can't stand. Well, that and the rule that after the MI I have to find the best result for the opponents that's at all likely based on their skill levels. Bleah.

 

I find the usage of "little buggers" in the first quote contradictory to the second quote, but either way it seems to me you should probably quit directing.

By little buggers I meant players in general, not specific to Poles. It comes from the idea that free tourneys often end up looking like Romper Room antics, eg. "He called me a doody-head!", "She's taking too long!". I would not have guessed that people would think I was being specific to Poles.

 

So I certainly apologize to any Poles out there. Especially short ones.

[RichMor]

I think it is because people have no idea how to play against it, also, I don't understand why there is not a ban by the same people on precision for the same reason

Yes. If we could send the BBO Forum in a time machine back to the 1980s and change 'Polish Club' to 'Precision Club' then the discussion would be about the same.

 

Back then I was one of the young punks(less than 50 years old) playing that funny Precision system(not what Mr Goren taught us to play)

 

We alerted and explained everything that had any specific systemic meaning. The LOLs still acted like we were doing 'something funny' to them.

 

One auction was something like this:

1♣ - (1♠) - Dbl - (P)

P- (P)

 

The opening bid was alerted and explained as 16+ HCP, forcing for one round, and showing nothing about Clubs or any other suit. The Double was alerted and explained as for takeout showing 5 to 7 HCP and balanced distribution.

 

The overcall was just a little 'lead director' on Qxxx or something and the final number was 800 or something.

 

The overcaller looked shocked and said something like 'but he opened 1♣ when he had Spades'.

 

So it goes.

[matmat]

I find the usage of "little buggers" in the first quote contradictory to the second quote, but either way it seems to me you should probably quit directing.

By little buggers I meant players in general, not specific to Poles.

so is that the kind of respect you have for the players you direct? maybe the poster above was right that you should quit directing. between this and the apparent yearning for gratitude you have...

[jtfanclub]

so is that the kind of respect you have for the players you direct? maybe the poster above was right that you should quit directing. between this and the apparent yearning for gratitude you have...

Well, thank you matmat. Your opinion means so much to me. Especially when it's combined with a psychoanalysis. That makes it worth at least twice as much.

 

It is tiring and annoying to direct free tournaments, and I will probably stop soon. The only reason I do it is because of a sense of obligation: if I simply played in free tournaments, and didn't direct or otherwise help with them, I'd feel like a leech. Since I'm just paying off a debt, I don't expect any gratitude. I just don't appreciate the ***** that certain people seem to want to pile on us.

 

And yes, to make it clear: I do consider myself to be a combination of referee and baby sitter when I run a free tourney. It's my job not just to handle the rules of the game, but to keep the fighting and crying to a minimum. I don't think of face to face games the same way because, well, people don't generally act like children in face to face games. For some reason, a number of people seem to feel that it's OK to act like spoiled brats just because they're online.

 

Don't like it? Don't play in my tournaments. Better still, run your own scheduled tournaments so you can talk about how much more wonderful they are when you run them.

[sceptic]

Don't like it? Don't play in my tournaments. Better still, run your own scheduled tournaments so you can talk about how much more wonderful they are when you run them.

 

That won't happen, most of the perfectionists here are armchair critics. try and understand a lot of the posters here have different ideals from normal people, some of them can't be with out a cell phone for more than 2 seconds and cant get home from tournaments without daddys help and some of them could not direct a tourney online if they tried, they just think they can and they just like putting other people down, to make themselves look good in front of thier friends

[matmat]

Don't like it? Don't play in my tournaments. Better still, run your own scheduled tournaments so you can talk about how much more wonderful they are when you run them.

 

That won't happen, most of the perfectionists here are armchair critics. try and understand a lot of the posters here have different ideals from normal people, some of them can't be with out a cell phone for more than 2 seconds and cant get home from tournaments without daddys help and some of them could not direct a tourney online if they tried, they just think they can and they just like putting other people down, to make themselves look good in front of thier friends

the cell phone thing again?

 

lol

just because your life appears to be so boring and stationary and you don't need a cellphone doesn't mean that others' lives are that way. use some imagination sceptic, at least *try* to understand why the others are saying what they are.

 

I am not sure I could run an online tourney. I certainly wouldn't volunteer and I don't feel an obligation to do it either.

If the only outcome of somene's voluntary TDing is bitching, moaning and complaining about the little bugger ingrates, why are they doing it at all? In fact, if the players knew how condescending their TD is in reality, would they still want to play that tournament?

[sceptic]

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

 

In fact, if the players knew how condescending their TD is in reality, would they still want to play that tournament?

 

and this is really a very shity thing to say, you are showing lack of respect for a lot of people, something you really should try and look in a mirror and try and realise

[matmat]

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

 

In fact, if the players knew how condescending their TD is in reality, would they still want to play that tournament?

 

and this is really a very shity thing to say, you are showing lack of respect for a lot of people, something you really should try and look in a mirror and try and realise

I don't pretend to have respect for them in the first place. If I think someone is being a moron, I tell them.

[sceptic]

as I said we are quite similar

[mycroft]

The Poles use WBF-style cards in national events, and they card their systems according to the WBF colour scheme - except that a system that is natural except for a multi-meaning, natural-or-strong, FORCING 1C opener is GREEN in Poland (and RED in WBF events).

 

They have sent WBF CCs for 20 years saying they're playing a GREEN system that ends up being Polish Club. Reasonably, but incorrectly, and given that there is a history - and that one looks at the several pages of system notes the "standard" Americans and Canadians tend to give, and see the absolute minimum notes given by the Poles, even now - the charges of "*this* is what you think is full disclosure?" tend to stick.

 

Please note that there's a number of club level players in the U.S. who Just Don't Get It either, when they're the outsider - just try to get an explanation of a "standard M5, D4" 1C (if you're a Pole, for instance), or the "everybody knows that" inferences in 1D-1S; 1NT-2C; 2S auctions. I even had one earlier this month where I wanted to know a) whether it was a Lebensohl auction and if so, b) what suit was the Lebensohl trigger and c) what did the "fast" 3NT mean about that suit after 1NT-2C (Brozel, C + H)-3NT-AP? "But you're going to see it in a minute, and you're not even on lead, why is it important?" So chalk it up to "Never Left Home" syndrome, not just to whether the home is Łódź or Des Moines.

 

Addendum: just checked the cards for Beijing. As an example, see http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...-FOURCAUDOT.pdf or http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...ell-freeman.pdf, and then http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...land/Poland.zip . Gierulski-Skrzypczak looks actually good and useful (and RED), although it would probably be better with some of the long followups as supplementary notes; but Jassem-Martens? Guys, you've only been hearing these complaints at world-championship level for 20 years; you could spend a couple of hours at least TRYING to avoid them? I won't gripe about their NV card being marked RED when it's simply BLUE; their system overall is RED, so they're arguably, and likely even unarguably, correct. Oh, and the third pair is playing a two-under-transfer opening system, reasonably (at first glance) well explained; but they call it BLUE. 11+, 4+Hearts is not the definition of a Strong Club in anybody's book (but theirs?), and 10 seconds reading the WBF systems policy would have shown them it's a RED system. Why doesn't the PZBS tell the coach/NPC to spend a couple of hours vetting the cards to at least make sure they're not trivially wrong?

 

Conversely, why doesn't the WBF tell the NBOs that cards that come in with this kind of trivial failures to adhere to the system policy will be rejected out of hand, and those players will not be given accreditation until a card with some minimum adherence to full disclosure has been submitted and the other teams given two weeks to study it?

Edited August 29, 2008 by mycroft

[matmat]

The Poles use WBF-style cards in national events, and they card their systems according to the WBF colour scheme - except that a system that is natural except for a multi-meaning, natural-or-strong, FORCING 1C opener is GREEN in Poland (and RED in WBF events).

 

They have sent WBF CCs for 20 years saying they're playing a GREEN system that ends up being Polish Club. Reasonably, but incorrectly, and given that there is a history - and that one looks at the several pages of system notes the "standard" Americans and Canadians tend to give, and see the absolute minimum notes given by the Poles, even now - the charges of "*this* is what you think is full disclosure?" tend to stick.

 

Please note that there's a number of club level players in the U.S. who Just Don't Get It either, when they're the outsider - just try to get an explanation of a "standard M5, D4" 1C (if you're a Pole, for instance), or the "everybody knows that" inferences in 1D-1S; 1NT-2C; 2S auctions. I even had one earlier this month where I wanted to know a) whether it was a Lebensohl auction and if so, :( what suit was the Lebensohl trigger and c) what did the "fast" 3NT mean about that suit after 1NT-2C (Brozel, C + H)-3NT-AP? "But you're going to see it in a minute, and you're not even on lead, why is it important?" So chalk it up to "Never Left Home" syndrome, not just to whether the home is Łódź or Des Moines.

 

Addendum: just checked the cards for Beijing. As an example, see http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...-FOURCAUDOT.pdf or http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...ell-freeman.pdf, and then http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...land/Poland.zip . Gierulski-Skrzypczak looks actually good and useful (and RED), although it would probably be better with some of the long followups as supplementary notes; but Jassem-Martens? Guys, you've only been hearing these complaints at world-championship level for 20 years; you could spend a couple of hours at least TRYING to avoid them? I won't gripe about their NV card being marked RED when it's simply BLUE; their system overall is RED, so they're arguably, and likely even unarguably, correct. Oh, and the third pair is playing a two-under-transfer opening system, reasonably (at first glance) well explained; but they call it BLUE. 11+, 4+Hearts is not the definition of a Strong Club in anybody's book (but theirs?), and 10 seconds reading the WBF systems policy would have shown them it's a RED system. Why doesn't the PZBS tell the coach/NPC to spend a couple of hours vetting the cards to at least make sure they're not trivially wrong?

 

Conversely, why doesn't the WBF tell the NBOs that cards that come in with this kind of trivial failures to adhere to the system policy will be rejected out of hand, and those players will not be given accreditation until a card with some minimum adherence to full disclosure has been submitted and the other teams given two weeks to study it?

maybe there shouldn't be so many colors?

 

i mean, with one partner i like to play indigo, with another taupe, and with a third sparkling orange.

 

System classification seems ridiculously too complicated.

[jtfanclub]

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

 

In fact, if the players knew how condescending their TD is in reality, would they still want to play that tournament?

 

and this is really a very shity thing to say, you are showing lack of respect for a lot of people, something you really should try and look in a mirror and try and realise

If all I did was direct, I suppose he might have a point.

 

But I play, in these very same tournaments, five times as often as I direct. And I'm fully aware that the people I'm directing will be directing me tomorrow. I am one of those little buggers, and I don't think of myself differently than I do others.

 

To put it another way, think of a pickup baseball game. One guy's gotta be the umpire. When it's my turn to be the ump, it's my job to boss people around, and if the pitcher wants to argue balls and strikes with me, I'll throw him out of the game. Tomorrow, he might be the ump, and I might be the pitcher, and if I whine, he'll toss me. It's not that we like being the umpire, it's that we like playing baseball with an ump, so somebody's got to do it.

 

I'm not patronizing to the players as individuals, because that would imply that I play favorites. To the tournament as a whole, well, I haven't heard any complaints yet. They know where I'm coming from, because they'll be where I'm coming from tomorrow.

[the hog]

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

Actually Wayne you are quite a lot different. Despite the fact that you call a spade a "spade", you have manners and intelligence - it is possible to hold an intelligent conversation with you. Furthermore you are not boorish.

[matmat]

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

Actually Wayne you are quite a lot different. Despite the fact that you call a spade a "spade", you have manners and intelligence - it is possible to hold an intelligent conversation with you. Furthermore you are not boorish.

by intelligent conversation, you mean agree with you on every topic possible?

 

y'all crack me up.

[the hog]

"y'all crack me up." I suggest you use superglue on your cracks.

[matmat]

"y'all crack me up." I suggest you use superglue on your cracks.

i prefer scotch-weld.

[Rossoneri]

But I play, in these very same tournaments, five times as often as I direct. And I'm fully aware that the people I'm directing will be directing me tomorrow. I am one of those little buggers, and I don't think of myself differently than I do others.

Are you sure you want to be a director? Are you sure you even know what other directors think?

 

Seriously, I say this again, please quit directing if you can't even have some basic respect and sense of service for the people you are directing for.

[jtfanclub]

Are you sure you want to be a director? Are you sure you even know what other directors think?

 

Seriously, I say this again, please quit directing if you can't even have some basic respect and sense of service for the people you are directing for.

Are you trying to be as patronizing as possible in order to show me how annoying it is?

[brianshark]

I have played very little random tournament bridge in the past year or so. But in my experience, people who play polish club don't alert well enough. When they open 1 of a suit, they don't say that it is up to 17pts. When the respond 1NT (to 1♣), they don't say it's 9-11. These are natural bids, but their ranges and inferences are alien to anyone only familiar with standard american or acol systems.

In ACBL tourneys (online or f2f) your examples are not alertable (regardless of "alien to anyone only familiar..."), so are you talking about other events where these bids might be alertable, and, if so, what are these events?

It doesn't matter if it's 'alertable' or not. These are bids that have ranges different to those who are used to standard american or acol style systems, therefore they are entitled to an explanation of these bids. The fact that the handiest way to do this on BBO is by clicking the alert button and typing in the explanation is incidental. Players playing methods that may be unfamiliar to their opponents should do the common courtesy of explaining their bid without having the opponents click on everything or ask a million questions which is very time consuming in an online setting. Perhaps people don't like playing against Polish club for this reason?

 

Oh, I'm sorry, I appear to be drifting off topic.

[vang]

as someone who recently started to play Polish Club with one partner, i want to say that the big problem is not the alert or explanation of 1C opening or 1D response. those are quite easy. but there are lots of special sequences which are usually not explained. for example, the simple 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♥. i guess for most Polish players, this is "natural", it shows hearts. for someone used with SAYC or similar systems, it's quite strange, it shows 5 (FIVE) plus hearts, 18+ HCP and GF.

 

Polish Club is a good system and players serious about bridge will gain studying it a little bit. but otoh, Polish Club players should be aware of those sequences which are "natural" but very different in SAYC world and alert and explain properly.

:

one other example from my experience: 1♣ - 1M - 2♦ explained as "relay". insuficient. it's not "relay", it is (at very least) "ART GF, 18+HCP, 3+ fit in M, ask description".

[kenberg]

This time issue is of importance both at the table and away from the table in preparation.

 

Here in the US, I certainly encounter the big club, precision or otherwise. So I agree with my partner that X is for the majors, 1NT is for the minors (no doubt not optimal, but adequate). Moreover we agree that this is the case both directly over 1C and also over 1C-pass-1D.

We encounter the Polish Club less often, and so we have not agreed on our bids over 1C alerted as being something like: 12-14 balanced, 15-17 unbalanced, 18+ any shape. Even with somewhat regular partners, I would be unsure of the meaning of 1C-X after this alert. If I encounter the PC more often, we will take the time to decide.

 

I don't see this as a reason to ban the Polish Club in any tournament I play in. I either will or will not work out how I want to handle it with my partner, our choice. But I can see that some directors, for some tournaments, might want to ban this and other approaches that may discourage some casual players, and I favor letting them do so.

[ASkolnick]

I happen to like playing against pairs who play a polish club. Because as much as there may be theoretical advantages to uninterrupted auctions, I noticed that for many pairs, if you play a slightly off-kiltered overcall structure (we play xfers at the one level, suction two and above), many pairs do not know what to do.

 

But I always think that the real problem is the ACBL's opinion to ban as many conventions as necessary. But the only way to get exposed to these conventions/systems is by allowing people to play against them.

[mycroft]

Ken, what do you do over a 1C Alerted as something like 12-14 balanced, 18-19 balanced, or unbalanced 11-21 without 5M unless they're 5-6 or better, or unbalanced 11-21 without 4D unless 4-5 or better (and if 4=5, it's 16-21)? Very likely your system over that will work over a Polish Club just fine - at least on 95% of the hands; the rest are going to be opened 2C by the rest of your opponents, or 1M-with-a-max, where defending normally against PC [edit]is going to do better than against natural, and also better than against the strong elements of the "could be short" standard 1C[end edit]. You can do more, but you don't have to.

 

OTOH, you have pointed out the main problem, and it's exascerbated by minimum disclosure issues, either because of lack of English facility or "everybody plays it this way" or whatever; have an agreement, even if it's suboptimal; that way you don't get 1C-X disasters (or 1C-1H disasters attempting to avoid 1C-X disasters).

 

I agree, 1C-1H; 2D, 1C-1S; 2H, 1C-1D; 1H and the like are more difficult to deal with the explanations of. But 1C Polish itself, except for being forcing (and when was the last time 1C was passed in standard?) is not really all that much more amorphous than the "could be short" 1C.

 

[edit: I realized that that sentence didn't say what I wanted it to say. So I made it clearer.]

[kenberg]

Mycroft,

There are two related but separate issues:

 

I) What is thew best way to play against opponents who use the Polish Club?

II) When playing on BBO, what can I make of my partner's bids, or what should my partner make of my bids, when we encounter the Polish Club?

 

We could do an instant poll of BBO players, perhaps, to see how many have discussed the defense to the Polish Club with their pard du jour, but I can venture a likely guess, as no doubt you can.

 

The poster poses the question why do people dislike the PC. I can well imagine II has something to do with it. Quite possibly the frequent opening of 1C makes transfer overcalls more effective (as Askolnick indicates). I might like to try this defense. But I can't see myself chatting online with a potential partner about this when there are so many more basic issues that are usually unsettled.

 

The above is not a reason to ban the Polish Club. But people are allowed to like or dislike as they choose, and I can imagine that the above has something to do with the dislike. Myself, I would welcome playing against it especially if it were frequent enough to make thinking through a defense time effective. I may be retired but my available time is still not infinite.

 

Ken

[Gerben42]

I really like playing against and with Polish players. Because of the WJ2005 system, there is very little need for discussion as everyone is on the same page. With American, Dutch or German players for example, I would have to discuss an awful lot to avoid misunderstandings on all but the simplest of sequences.

 

Second, the level of card play in Poland is incredibly high compared to most places. Many have told me that if you play in Germany and make an extra trick on a squeeze, even in quite large tournaments, you are bound for an 80% score or so. In Poland, you'd be getting 55%...

 

  I happen to like playing against pairs who play a polish club. Because as much as there may be theoretical advantages to uninterrupted auctions, I noticed that for many pairs, if you play a slightly off-kiltered overcall structure (we play xfers at the one level, suction two and above), many pairs do not know what to do.

 

This is the same anywhere, although I think in Poland they know MORE what to do than somewhere else.