Polish Club on BBO

[awm]

I've noticed a lot of tournaments banning polish club. ACBL directors have also at times in the past announced (incorrectly) that polish club was banned. In general it seems that a lot of BBO players and directors dislike polish club, much more than they dislike strong club (for example).

 

Anyone have a guess at the reason for this?

[jtfanclub]

In the ACBL, it's because of Wilcosz.

 

In BBO, as far as I can tell, it's because we can't get the little buggers to alert. It's not alertable in Poland, and they don't alert it on BBO.

 

This wouldn't be so bad, but virtually all of them have "SAYC or WJ200x" on their profile, and they don't have a convention card. So they open a club (not alerted), and later it turns out they had a doubleton club, so the director gets called, and there's lots of grief. Off hand, I can't remember any case where there was obvious damage from the club opening being a doubleton, but wow do people scream about it.

 

Yes, a number of Polish Club players alert everything properly, but they seem to be the minority. In contrast, everybody who plays Precision that I've seen alerts properly. I'm sure it's because Precision is alertable in their home country.

 

I'm sorry if that sounds anti-Polish. Personally, I don't give a r.b. that one club openings might, on rare occasions, be two card suits (or for some players 4-4-4-1). Yes, it would be nice if they'd alert 1 club because of the strong option, but it's the <edited, balanced medium strength hands> that gets all the director calls.

[Guest Jlall]

Because it is confusing to them and they never play against it. When you hear an alert that a bid is "this or that or that" and you are a bad old player you get flustered.

[gwnn]

I may be biased but many Polish club playing people (not all, but more often than average) seem to have difficulties in disclosing all of their inferences etc. They open 1C and then alert their subsequent bids "normal" or "natural" and then get annoyed when I ask them for further clarification. Well, this is probably because of language proficiency issues and/or the fact that some of these players are used to opps who know most basic specific Polish club sequences. A much more politically correct restriction would be "please only play in this tourney if you can adequately explain your agreements in English".

[pclayton]

Because it is confusing to them and they never play against it. When you hear an alert that a bid is "this or that or that" and you are a bad old player you get flustered.

LOL I get a lot of this when I play a 1♣ opening as clubs or balanced. But don't you think its legitimate to say, "could be short, when 1♣ isn't forcing"?

 

I also get a few "so this is like Polish Club?". I smile and say, "sort of".

[Gerardo]

Well in BBO context, both Wilkosz and Multi are banned, because of GCC. Guess you can play PC in GCC ACBL, but you have to find a GCC approved meaning for 2♦, and probably lose something in the way.

 

I have seen too many 1♣ explained as "12+". Positively HATE it (so you open ALL 12+ 1♣? No), but haven't see that one lately. OTOH, I ask less these days. (How often this happens now?)

 

Also, the SECOND bid after a multi meaning MUST be alerted, happens rarely. I once (long ago) adjusted to 4♥= when opps missed it after 1♣ : 1♦ : (not alerted) 1♥ (which is 12-14, and 3+♥, or maybe 2+♥ in some variants).

 

I play PC when I can.

[Walddk]

It's a combination of 3. and 4. It's not popular where they play, and the alert procedure by Polish Club players online is random (at best).

 

There are two reasons for this:

 

- 1. The bids seem so "natural" to people who play Polish Club.

- 2. Language problem. Many speak very poor or no English at all.

 

So, when asked to explain it is not always a matter of "can't be bothered". More often than not it's a "don't understand what you're saying". That's why you don't get the explanation(s) you requested.

 

Roland

[matmat]

In BBO, as far as I can tell, it's because we can't get the little buggers to alert.

little buggers, eh?

 

Typical example of an american thinking he's at the center of the *****ing world. (sorry kathryn)

 

Please excuse the Poles from having the indecency to assume that the average ACBL club player, like, say, jtfanclub, has at least a vague familiarity with one of the most commonly played, and often considered superior, systems.

[helene_t]

My impression is that the Poles on BBO are better at alerting than any other nationality. Of course this is also badly needed because they have many agreements that are alien to other nationalities. However, as long as Polish Club is allowed I think we non-Poles should try to alert our own agreements better and try to learn the essentials of PC, instead of just wining about the evil Poles who actually do their best.

 

It is possible that a Polish BBO-newbie who doesn't follow the inference from "natural" SA-bids and who hans't heard about the SA 2♣ opening is disadvantaged by the SA-players failure to disclose their methods.

 

I vote for xenophobia.

[Walddk]

I vote for xenophobia.

I vote for tolerance. The Poles are neither better nor worse than the rest of us. As I wrote above, most of them have a serious language problem because everyone is supposed to speak English.

 

Not many Poles do, or if they do, it's not adequate when it comes to explaining certain bids in detail.

 

Roland

[brianshark]

I have played very little random tournament bridge in the past year or so. But in my experience, people who play polish club don't alert well enough. When they open 1 of a suit, they don't say that it is up to 17pts. When the respond 1NT (to 1♣), they don't say it's 9-11. These are natural bids, but their ranges and inferences are alien to anyone only familiar with standard american or acol systems.

 

The fact that the several possible meanings for the 1♣ opening (and 1♦ response) can seem daunting to players unfamiliar with the system doesn't help much either.

[brianshark]

BTW, is multi banned from ACBL tourneys on BBO?

[Mbodell]

Yeah, I think a big part of it too is the club level ACBL general attitude of conventions, except a few special ones, are evil or hard or should be restricted to very high level competition. An attitude of if you aren't playing SA or 2/1 then you should be looked at suspiciously as if you aren't playing real bridge. There is enough of a minority who play some strong club that older club players can sigh and roll their eyes and sort of know what is going on, but if you are playing something that isn't SA and isn't 2/1 and isn't even precision then that is clearly way too complicated. I also agree that the "this or that or that" is disconcerting to a lot of people.

 

F2F regional pairs event on Tuesday night where my partner and I are playing a watered down GCC form of our system and have a strong club relay auction that goes (with opponents not bidding but one asking for the explanations on all the bids):

 

1♣* - forcing artificial showing any 16+ no matter the number of clubs

1♠* - artificial game force showing 8+ points and 2+ controls where and A is 2 controls and a K is 1 control that is either a balanced hand or both red suits

1NT* - relay, asking partner to describe his hand further

2♦* - balanced hand that is either 4333 with a 4 card minor or 4432 with the 4 card suits the same length

 

and one of our opponents who started fidgeting after the 1♣ bid by the 2♦ bid was saying things like "this can't be legal" and "you can't have multiple bids that don't mean the suit you are bidding" and is quite mad. My partner let her know it was legal but invited her to call the director (which is probably what we should have done). We ended up playing a routine 4♠ with the contract wrongsided and the declarer's exact shape and controls known, but the opponents were still upset to the point that they were complaining about us at the next table for the whole next round. And these were formerly friendly nice people who gave the typical "It is so nice to see young people playing bridge" at the start of the round!

 

So if you add a language barrier and/or no alerts of some bids people are going to get very upset. Plus you probably don't see Polish folks complaining about 2/1 not being alerted because of the same language barrier issues. When they are upset they may not be able to make an English director call.

[jillybean]

Ooops, i checked the answer "Because many Polish Club players don't alert/explain properly" and then read your main question, thats different.

 

I think PolishClub is banned in tournaments because;

1. The TD's dont know how to handle calls claiming MI, illegal bids (Same reason psyches are banned)

2. They want to keep the majority of the players 'happy' and people dont like playing against uncommon to America (note I didnt say unusual) systems.

3. Its hard to get information from Polish♣ players.

 

We arent playing in a bubble, Polish Club is common enough on BBO for it to be your responsibilty to educate yourself.

[jtfanclub]

Please excuse the Poles from having the indecency to assume that the average ACBL club player, like, say, jtfanclub, has at least a vague familiarity with one of the most commonly played, and often considered superior, systems.

Should I post a link where I say that I don't even think most of PC should be alertable, as long as they announce their system?

 

It's actually the whining I can't stand. Well, that and the rule that after the MI I have to find the best result for the opponents that's at all likely based on their skill levels. Bleah.

[jillybean]

It's actually the whining I can't stand. Well, that and the rule that after the MI I have to find the best result for the opponents that's at all likely based on their skill levels. Bleah.

No, after the MI you need to check to see if there was damage. Often people are just caught off guard and call the TD because the opps don’t have what they think they should have. This is perpetuated when someone gives adjustments based on MI, missing alert rather than on damage.

[Lobowolf]

In BBO, as far as I can tell, it's because we can't get the little buggers to alert.

little buggers, eh?

 

Typical example of an american thinking he's at the center of the *****ing world. (sorry kathryn)

 

Please excuse the Poles from having the indecency to assume that the average ACBL club player, like, say, jtfanclub, has at least a vague familiarity with one of the most commonly played, and often considered superior, systems.

Yeah, when a popular AMERICAN-based free bridge server crops up, then you can talk about how you'd like people from other places to do things in accordance with...

 

 

 

Wait, maybe that's a bad example.

[glen]

I have played very little random tournament bridge in the past year or so. But in my experience, people who play polish club don't alert well enough. When they open 1 of a suit, they don't say that it is up to 17pts. When the respond 1NT (to 1♣), they don't say it's 9-11. These are natural bids, but their ranges and inferences are alien to anyone only familiar with standard american or acol systems.

In ACBL tourneys (online or f2f) your examples are not alertable (regardless of "alien to anyone only familiar..."), so are you talking about other events where these bids might be alertable, and, if so, what are these events?

[matmat]

Yeah, when a popular AMERICAN-based free bridge server crops up, then you can talk about how you'd like people from other places to do things in accordance with...

 

 

 

Wait, maybe that's a bad example.

you mean the site that has support for a myriad of foreign languages? the site that prides itself on having an international community? that site?

[Rossoneri]

From my experiences as a TD on BBO, I have had very few cases of MI, and I do allow Polish Club in my tourneys. From my impression, Polish players are about average when it comes to not alerting bids, so I think it would be unfair to say that they don't alert their bids properly.

 

In BBO, as far as I can tell, it's because we can't get the little buggers to alert. It's not alertable in Poland, and they don't alert it on BBO.

 

This wouldn't be so bad, but virtually all of them have "SAYC or WJ200x" on their profile, and they don't have a convention card. So they open a club (not alerted), and later it turns out they had a doubleton club, so the director gets called, and there's lots of grief. Off hand, I can't remember any case where there was obvious damage from the club opening being a doubleton, but wow do people scream about it.

 

Should I post a link where I say that I don't even think most of PC should be alertable, as long as they announce their system?

 

It's actually the whining I can't stand. Well, that and the rule that after the MI I have to find the best result for the opponents that's at all likely based on their skill levels. Bleah.

 

I find the usage of "little buggers" in the first quote contradictory to the second quote, but either way it seems to me you should probably quit directing.

 

We arent playing in a bubble, Polish Club is common enough on BBO for it to be your responsibilty to educate yourself.

 

I can't agree more with this.

 

I believe this was brought up in some other Polish Club thread, but think about it, how would you describe a SAYC 1C? 1) 12-14 balanced, 2) 12-21 with clubs 3) 18-19 balanced?

[uday]

Moved to the watercooler, since this thread seems like it might devolve into something unsuitable for tender ears.

 

We don't take much of a position on this stuff. If you think your opps might need an alert, alert. Or don't. Just be nice about it :P TDs are free to override the first part of these rules in their own events.

 

In ACBL tourneys we (BBO) have to follow ACBL rules.

 

Of course, we might want to avoid the tone conveyed by terms like "litle buggers" or even threads that appear to bash people from specific countries. Or not. Just be nice about it. pls.

 

Uday

[hrothgar]

I doubt that this can be attributed to any one root cause. There looks to be plenty of blame to go around. However, here's a few (vaguely related) thoughts:

 

1. Language issues are an obvious problem. Most of the Poles that I've meet speak two - three different "foreign" languages. However, English isn't always one of them (Russian, German, and French seem to be the most combine). There is an expectational that English serves as the lingua franca for bridge. However, this expectation often clashes with reality.

 

2. I suspect that a lot of folks believe that whatever alert standards that they are used to locally apply all over the world. This creates a lot of trouble when Poles are playing in ACBL tournaments. I suspect that the converse holds true as well.

 

3. The core of Polish Club is completely legal at the GCC level. However, some of the most popular adjuncts like the Wilkosz 2♦ opening (alternatively, the multi 2♦ opening and the Polish scissors) are banned at the GCC level. Many directors have no interest in understanding what is/is not legal. They just want to "play bridge", so they ban anything they don't understand.

 

4. I think that there is a fair amount of Xenophobia / not invented here at work. Many Americans seem to love to wallow in their ignorance. If anything, 911, "Old Europe", and "Freedom Fries" seem to have made this worse. The very name "Polish Club" states that this is different/foreign. It becomes an obvious target for the petty and the close-minded

 

5. In the past, some of the Poles playing at the top levels had a reputation for providing less than adequate disclosure. I think that this has prejudiced the feeling of a number of pros regarding Poles in general, Polish club, and the like. ***** tends to flow down hill. Some of these same talking points have been internalized even at local levels.

 

 

This looks like a reasonable starting point...

[kenberg]

PC, Multi, Wilcosz etc. My thoughts, only vaguely formed:

 

In theory, I enjoy the challenge. In practice, it often devolves into "yeah, whatever". I play a few hands against opponents who I don't know, will likely never see again, and I am playing with a partner I may not know all that well. At best maybe I know the meaning of double if I open 1N, lho calls 2C (DONT) and he doubles. Often I have no idea. So clearly we have not prepared a defense for, say, the Multi. Or for the Polish Club.

 

I would love to see a page on BBO suggesting

The BBO understanding of the Polish Club

Suggested ways for modifying your defensive bidding if the opponents are playing PC

Some inferences one might take about holdings when a PC auction is heard (if they open 1C, and if they open 1H, etc).

Similar matters on the Multi, Wilcosz, whatever.

 

There could be basics, and extensions. For example, I use option 1 of the ACBL defense against the Multi with one partner. It's not rocket science, but it's adequate for starters. At least there is some agreement. Often the problem in playing against artificial systems is not so much that you don't know what their bids mean (perhaps they will tell you) but rather that you do not know what your own bids mean: 2D(Multi)-X -pass -? Good luck.

 

I would read the articles suggested above and I would seek partners who have read them.

[Aberlour10]

I belong to the small group of polish players who don't play Polish Club anyway, but I play very often vs polish WJ-pairs as well in polish tournaments as in MBC, many of these pairs use CC's, very many are able to explain their bids in the special "alert language" ( english is not obligate for doing it right) From my observations the main reason for this dislike is...: "I dont want to touch something that I do not know...and that I'm not able to handle"... just my 2 cents...

 

Robert

[sceptic]

I think it is because people have no idea how to play against it, also, I don't understand why there is not a ban by the same people on precision for the same reason