What does it mean, using NMF.

[PedroG]

Hi All,

 

Yesterday games gave me the following hand I was sitting West...

 

[hv=d=s&v=e&w=st8hk86dk94cak872&e=saq96ha542dt3cqt5]266|100|Scoring: IMP

P-1♣-P-1♥

P-1NT-P-2♠[/hv]

 

What should this 2♠ bid mean, we had agreed to play NMF...

 

With my 1NT I deny having 4♠ so any search for other major I think should be done with the 2♦ bid... also with 5/5 in the majors my partner would start with 1♠, so probably he must have something like 5/6...

 

Also this is akward since he force me to the three level if I must prefer Hearts over Spades, but can't be forcing since if it was forcing he should use the NMF... what is is point range for this bid... I took it has invitational.

 

Anyway his hand was nothing of what I expected :)

 

But was I wrong in my reasoning?

 

Pedro

[helene_t]

2♠ with this hand is pointless (as you have observed as well). He should just bid 3NT.

 

I am not sure which hands would be suitable for a 2♠ bid (other than 5-6 as you suggest), maybe some of the experts here can enlighten us. But it is certainly forcing.

[P_Marlowe]

Actually I should wait until a real expert answers, but ...

 

#1 your partner should have bid 2NT or 3NT, most likely 3NT will get

the vote of the majority, but partners actual hand is not relevant

for answering your question.

 

#2 In the first place 2S showes only 4-4, indicating that responders

is worried for some reasons about 3NT, the bid asks you to bid

3H / 3S, if you happen to hold 3 cards in hearts or in spades,

you should bid hearts, if you are 3-3, because responder will

have 5 hearts most of the time.

Finally, in the given situation, it does not matter, which hand

responder showes, 2S asks for further description, and you

should oblige the request.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Some player may even bid 1NT even with 4 spades, e.g. in case

they happen to hold a 4333 shape, and xxxx in spades, in which cases

a 2S bid showing 4-4 would also cater for this situation.

[helene_t]

Finally, in the given situation, it does not matter, which hand

responder showes, 2S asks for further description, and you

should oblige the request.

I have to disagree with this. The generic "tell me more" bid is 2♦, NMF. 2♠ must be a descriptive bid.

 

I can sorta understand the idea that 2♠ should show concern about the diamond suit but I don't think this hand is suitable for a 2♠ call with that meaning. By just bidding 3NT, a diamond lead is not obvious, especially if you play Walsh so you might have long diamonds.

[P_Marlowe]

Finally, in the given situation, it does not matter, which hand

    responder showes, 2S asks for further description, and you

    should oblige the request.

I have to disagree with this. The generic "tell me more" bid is 2♦, NMF. 2♠ must be a descriptive bid.

<snip>

The reason I said this, is, that opener already did

describe his hand to a large degree (shape / HCP

count), and if there is a decision to make, the decision

will be made by responder, ... but maybe there do

exist hands / certain future developments in the

auction which will force opener to make a decision.

 

And only than I would try to figure out, why responder

did bid 2S, and what he holds, safes stamina.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ArcLight]

Hi All,

 

Yesterday games gave me the following hand I was sitting West...

 

[hv=d=s&v=e&w=st8hk86dk94cak872&e=saq96ha542dt3cqt5]266|100|Scoring: IMP

P-1♣-P-1♥

P-1NT-P-2♠[/hv]

 

What should this 2♠ bid mean, we had agreed to play NMF...

 

With my 1NT I deny having 4♠ so any search for other major I think should be done with the 2♦ bid... also with 5/5 in the majors my partner would start with 1♠, so probably he must have something like 5/6...

 

Also this is akward since he force me to the three level if I must prefer Hearts over Spades, but can't be forcing since if it was forcing he should use the NMF... what is is point range for this bid... I took it has invitational.

 

Anyway his hand was nothing of what I expected :)

 

But was I wrong in my reasoning?

 

Pedro

Does 1♣ - p - 1♥ - p, 1NT always deny 4 spades?

 

I think Jdonn and maybe Fred said that with 4=3=3=3 shape opener should rebid 1NT and bypass 1♠. Maybe Ron Klinger also said this?

 

 

 

(if one of the people named above didn't say that - if I misunderstood, or misstated - no offense intended)

[Gerardo]

For me, 2♠ in the given auction shows 4♠s, 5+♥s, and a GF hand.

[rbforster]

This really comes down to whether opener will bypass 4 spades with a balanced hand to bid 1N. If they will, you probably want to play 2♠ as invitational with 4-4 majors. If it's not, then it probably shows a GF hand with more majors, although how many is up to you.

[pclayton]

Is there ever a case where Opener is weak in the other minor and we want to explore for a 4-3 spade fit?

 

2♠ can be either a 4-4 or a 4-5 or neither. It should have some meaning, but if a casual partnership wants to say it does not exist, then thats fine.

[y66]

1m 1H : 1N 2S is strange playing NMF.

 

I like OP's reasoning that it should show 56??.

 

Putting this on the list for discussion with p. Not at the top though.

 

Agree with others that responder has an easy 3N bid there. Even if p opens light, we have fitting clubs.

[PedroG]

Does 1♣ - p - 1♥ - p, 1NT always deny 4 spades?

 

I think Jdonn and maybe Fred said that with 4=3=3=3 shape opener should rebid 1NT and bypass 1♠. Maybe Ron Klinger also said this?

I for once was always bidding the 4 card suit, but open to the reasoning if you can show me the thread :)

 

Ty

[jtfanclub]

I still use this for invitational or worse 4♥-5♠ hand, saving spades then hearts for 5-5 (or longer). I have yet to have hand where after 1m-1♥-1NT, I've said "gee, I wish I had 2♠ available" when I didn't have this hand.

 

I am *not* recommending this, I am just saying it's not a bid that seems terribly useful otherwise!

[jdonn]

I still use this for invitational or worse 4♥-5♠ hand, saving spades then hearts for 5-5 (or longer). I have yet to have hand where after 1m-1♥-1NT, I've said "gee, I wish I had 2♠ available" when I didn't have this hand.

 

I am *not* recommending this, I am just saying it's not a bid that seems terribly useful otherwise!

You respond 1♥ when 5-4 in the majors??

[jtfanclub]

You respond 1♥ when 5-4 in the majors??

With partners where I have that specific agreement, yes.

 

In SAYC, no.

 

Edit: Want to repeat- I am not reccomending this treatment. Just saying that I don't miss the 2♠ call in this auction.

[neilkaz]

For me, 2♠ in the given auction shows 4♠s, 5+♥s, and a GF hand.

For me 4+♠, 5+♥ and GF.

 

On the given flat hand, responder should just take a shot at 3NT noting his ♣ fitting cards may be of use, and perhaps the opps lead ♠ rather than ♦ even if a ♦ lead is harmful.

 

I don't mind a cautious invite with 2NT, but unless playing really weak openings, I'll shoot it out in game.

[jdonn]

Edit: Want to repeat- I am not reccomending this treatment.

Glad to see we are on the same page.

[jtfanclub]

Edit:  Want to repeat- I am not reccomending this treatment.

Glad to see we are on the same page.

I really don't mind the snide remarks, but would you mind not posting only snide remarks? We already have one Han.

[Mbodell]

My partner and I are very much in the camp of bypassing a 4 card spade suit, even when 4432 to bid 1nt if we are in the right shape and points for nt. When we discussed this situation we decided that 44 or 54 was reasonable shape, but we play 2-way NMF and decided that if you couldn't invite with 2♣ that you should plan ahead and bid 1♠ not 1♥ if you want to sign off with 44 in the majors. Then you can have 1♦-1♠-1NT-2♥ to show these sign offs. That meant 1♦-1♥-1NT-2♠ has to be more shapely.

[mike777]

I have grave doubts about advocating bypassing a 4 card spade suit in all but very very rare cases in the B/I section.

 

As for the OP.......Lets assume 2s is natural and game forcing for starters...If you prefer 3nt rather than 2s fair enough but 2s at the very least should be game forcing and show spade values. :)

[helene_t]

I have grave doubts about advocating bypassing a 4 card spade suit in all but very very rare cases in the B/I section.

I think opening or rebidding NT with all balanced hands (unless 4-card support) should be taught to beginners. It is so much easier.

 

Leave it to the experts to figure out if it might produce better results to bid otherwise with some balanced hands (opening a 1M with 5323 in the NT range, support with 3 cards, or, as here, bid a 4234 as a two-suiter).

[pclayton]

Edit:  Want to repeat- I am not reccomending this treatment.

Glad to see we are on the same page.

I really don't mind the snide remarks, but would you mind not posting only snide remarks? We already have one Han.

You new around here?

[jdonn]

Edit:  Want to repeat- I am not reccomending this treatment.

Glad to see we are on the same page.

I really don't mind the snide remarks, but would you mind not posting only snide remarks? We already have one Han.

You new around here?

Don't complain Phil! It makes for a good signature :)

[Wackojack]

If you play NMF, it is normal to bypass a 4 card major when you have a balanced hand. Even if you had agreed to play NMF, I believe that if your partner has a choice between an ask and a tell bid it is better to tell. Thus I think your partner was showing 4♠ +5♥ forcing. On the actual hand he could have rebid 2♦ to find a possible 4-4 ♠fit.

[neilkaz]

If you play NMF, it is normal to bypass a 4 card major when you have a balanced hand. Even if you had agreed to play NMF, I believe that if your partner has a choice between an ask and a tell bid it is better to tell. Thus I think your partner was showing 4♠ +5♥ forcing. On the actual hand he could have rebid 2♦ to find a possible 4-4 ♠fit.

It's not normal for me to bypass a 4 card ♠ suit nor is it normal for my partners.

 

ie...1m-1♥-1NT would only be bid when holding 4♠ if the ♠ were really weak or if they were mediocre and opener was 4333.

 

Different strokes for different folks .. neilkaz ..

[mike777]

If you play NMF, it is normal to bypass a 4 card major when you have a balanced hand.  Even if you had agreed to play NMF, I believe that if your partner has a choice between an ask and a tell bid it is better to tell.  Thus I think your partner was showing 4♠ +5♥ forcing.  On the actual hand he could have rebid 2♦ to find a possible 4-4 ♠fit.

I strongly disagree that it is standard to bypass a 4 card spade suit when balanced after 1minor=1 heart when playing NMF

 

I strongly disagree that even to suggest walsh style after 1c=1d and now bypass a major is standard in B/I when playing NMF.