Lebensohl Woes

[kfay]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sj109xxhkjxxxdc10xx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

P-(1♣)-1NT-(2♦)

?[/hv]

 

Do you have agreements here? What are they?

 

What's your route if you don't?

[Guest Jlall]

Just play leb revolving around RHOs suit.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

system on, i.e. we ignore the opening bid, hence the

cue is 3D.

 

I would go with X, as long as it is t/o, if X would be

penalty, I would just bid 2H.

 

If I can make a t/o, I will raise partners mayor suit

response to the 3 level.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[awm]

I would go with X, as long as it is t/o, if X would be

penalty, I would just bid 2H.

Okay I agree with everyone that this is the same as 1NT-(2♦). So 3♦ is the cue, 2NT lebensohl, etc. But lebensohl doesn't deal very well with 5-5 majors hands does it? You can bid 3♦, but this presumably asks for a four card major not "longer major." You can pick a major at the two level (but you might pick wrong). I suppose with a game force you can bid 3♠ and then 4♥ over 3NT, but that assumes you're really willing to be in game with this hand.

 

Even if double is takeout, mightn't partner convert? Do you really want to be defending 2♦X with this hand on your void?

 

It seems weird to me that people consistently bid hearts on hands like this, as PMarlowe indicated he would. Surely if you are going to guess a major at the two-level (which might well be least of evils) then you're better off to bid 2♠. This way if the auction continues with a 3♦ raise by opener (not unlikely given your void) and the auction passes back, you can balance 3♥ and get both suits in. If you start with hearts you can't exactly reverse into spades next (well you could, but what if partner has 2344 or the like).

[helene_t]

2♠. Lebensohl can't help me this time. If they bid 3♦ I might try 3♥.

[neilkaz]

2♠. Lebensohl can't help me this time. If they bid 3♦ I might try 3♥.

My thoughts also, noting I expect PD may have some wasted values in ♦ and thus I cannot force to game.

[Guest Jlall]

As for the actual hand, I strongly disagree with just bidding 2M, this hand is too good in my opinion and you'll miss a game too much. I would just bid 3D then 4D. True partner might be 2-2 in the majors but it's unlikely.

[jdonn]

If it went 1NT P to me, and I had to choose between signing off or bidding game, i would sign off. But here we have length in the suit where partner's honor(s) are well placed, and a 1NT overcall has a higher range than a 1NT opening. In addition, we are void in the suit RHO bid. So even though it wasn't my first instinct I agree with forcing to game. If I had a way to invite, or only force to game opposite four in either major, that's what I would do instead.

[pclayton]

Our chances of a fit are so high so I would not invite with this even if given the chance. The diamond void is a huge plus.

 

4♣ is a logical call with this but it might cause pard to furrow his brow. I think I'd 3♠ and 4♥ it. Maybe 3♦ / 4♦ should be pick a major, but spades and then hearts is crystal clear.

[Lobowolf]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sj109xxhkjxxxdc10xx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

P-(1♣)-1NT-(2♦)

?[/hv]

 

Do you have agreements here? What are they?

 

What's your route if you don't?

With respect to the question about agreements, mine are that if the auction starts: (1x) - 1NT, we bid as if the auction had started 1NT, including if there is further bidding by third hand (i.e. including Lebensohl). Don't know if there are theoretical reasons why that might not be optimal, but it seems to work well and requires zero memory strain.

[Guest Jlall]

Our chances of a fit are so high so I would not invite with this even if given the chance. The diamond void is a huge plus.

 

4♣ is a logical call with this but it might cause pard to furrow his brow. I think I'd 3♠ and 4♥ it. Maybe 3♦ / 4♦ should be pick a major, but spades and then hearts is crystal clear.

Spades then hearts risks playing in spades when we have more hearts, and also seriously risks wrongsiding the hand.

[Impact]

Advantage to playing my version of Leb:

 

2NT asks for the other 2 suits (here being the Majors) st

NT overcaller bids 3C= no 4/5Major which allows 3D to ask for better M

3D= both M

3M= only that M

advancer's other bids in this sequence will be transfers to M at 3-level with at least I

 

at 2-level bids are T

 

regards

[655321]

2♠ for me.

 

If this is not passed out, I am bidding 3♥ next.

 

While this bidding is definitely not invitational, it is just 'to play', I still expect partner to raise with 4 card support on the same principle as superaccepting after a transfer. This way we can bid game some of the time that game is good, and avoid some bad games.

 

BTW, is the 3 card club suit really an advantage? Often, (not here obviously), length in opener's suit is a pointer to avoiding 4M in favor of 3NT because of the risk of ruffs.

[pclayton]

Our chances of a fit are so high so I would not invite with this even if given the chance. The diamond void is a huge plus.

 

4♣ is a logical call with this but it might cause pard to furrow his brow. I think I'd 3♠ and 4♥ it. Maybe 3♦ / 4♦ should be pick a major, but spades and then hearts is crystal clear.

Spades then hearts risks playing in spades when we have more hearts, and also seriously risks wrongsiding the hand.

What exactly are we wrongsiding? Any clubs rate to be onside. I suppose there's a diamond tap possible if pard has K-empty or something like that, but this seems remote.

 

How are we going to play in our lesser trump fit? Surely I'm at least 5-4 for this action (and probably 5-5).

[Guest Jlall]

What exactly are we wrongsiding? Any clubs rate to be onside. I suppose there's a diamond tap possible if pard has K-empty or something like that, but this seems remote.

They "rate" to be onside, but that isn't really good enough. What if they're about to lead a stiff/doubleton club honor and we have wrongsided it. What if all the clubs are onside but partner has AQ9x and we have to decide what to do at trick 1? What if they are about to lead the DK and partner has AJT? What if LHO leads a stiff spade through dummy? What if they get a tap going. Etc. It is pretty clear that we would rather partner play this hand than us.

 

How are we going to play in our lesser trump fit? Surely I'm at least 5-4 for this action (and probably 5-5).

 

Think about it! I'm sure you can figure it out!

[maxentius]

4 ♦...no other ideea

[pclayton]

4 ♦...no other ideea

Make sure your partner doesn't take this as Texas.

[pclayton]

How are we going to play in our lesser trump fit? Surely I'm at least 5-4 for this action (and probably 5-5).

 

Think about it! I'm sure you can figure it out!

Sorry, the imagination meter doesn't go this high. Please explain.

They "rate" to be onside, but that isn't really good enough. What if they're about to lead a stiff/doubleton club honor and we have wrongsided it.

 

You are absolutely right. RHO leading a singleton is a huge concern.

[SoTired]

3D/4D. Since there is no way to invite and show a 5-5 at the same time, we settle for GF Stayman. That will find a 5-4 fit. 4D will force partner to choose a major. It should be a good game.

 

If we bid 2S, we might play it there, missing a good game or a better fit in hearts

 

If we bid 3S, partner will raise to 4S with 3s & 4h and we miss the better fit.

[jdonn]

How are we going to play in our lesser trump fit? Surely I'm at least 5-4 for this action (and probably 5-5).

 

Think about it! I'm sure you can figure it out!

Sorry, the imagination meter doesn't go this high. Please explain.

OOH OOH can I?? Call on me jlall!

[TimG]

If it went 1NT P to me, and I had to choose between signing off or bidding game, i would sign off.

A simple double dummy simulation:

predeal north SJT954, HKJ842, CT64

   south_shape_ok=shape(south, any 4432 + any 4333 + any 5332 - 5xxx -x5xx)
   south_HCP_ok=hcp(south)<18 && hcp(south)>14
   south_ok=south_shape_ok && south_HCP_ok

condition south_ok

suggests that 4M makes over 50% of the time (and that it doesn't matter whether opener or responder declares the hand).

 

Bump the NT bid to 16-18 and it goes to over 60%. But, I did not take into account the opening bid so cannot make any statement about how that affects things.

[Echognome]

Simulation = proof!

[TimG]

Simulation = proof!

Nope. It is what it is, but it ain't proof. Hope I didn't imply it was.

[Lobowolf]

Simulation = proof!

Nope. It is what it is, but it ain't proof. Hope I didn't imply it was.

Evidence.

[Guest Jlall]

How are we going to play in our lesser trump fit? Surely I'm at least 5-4 for this action (and probably 5-5).

 

Think about it! I'm sure you can figure it out!

Sorry, the imagination meter doesn't go this high. Please explain.

Come on....... If you bid 3S and partner has 3 spades and 4 hearts what will partner bid?