FP, Take out?

[jillybean]

1♠ (3♥) ?

 

How do you play pass and double here?

[Guest Jlall]

pass is pass and double is negative...

[jillybean]

Apparently not everywhere. My pard said pass is forcing, I must double.

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=saq962h4dkt7ckt75&w=sjt3hdq98632cj632&e=s75hqj97532dajc84&s=sk84hakt86d54caq9]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♠    3♥    Pass

 Pass  Pass  

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

your partner is wrong, he would have been right, if the seq.

would have gone

 

1S - (2H) - Pass - ...

 

when Pass is "forcing".

 

More precise: opener is required to reopen with a double, as

long as he happens to hold a shortage in their suit.

After the 3H bid, this is different, now opener should only

reopen the bidding, if he has add. strength, some require more

some less, but all will agree, that a reopening double showes

add. strength.

 

As it is, it is usally not a good idea to go for a penalty, if you

happen to have a fit for partner.

I am not good in analysing the play, it seems your side may

prevent the opponents from getting more than 5 tricks,

and maybe it will go for 1100 (-5), but I would say taking the

vul. game is a lot less stressful.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Walddk]

Pass is not forcing, but it may contain a penalty if you play negative doubles this high (I recommend that you do). Opener is supposed to re-open with a double if s/he is short in the suit overcalled and has a normal opener.

 

Responder will convert (pass) with a penalty and bid some suit if s/he is weak.

 

If opener can "see" (length in the suit) that responder can't have a penalty, pass is the only sensible bid. Accordingly, responder's pass is not forcing at all. However, with the hand you put forward opener should double on his/her second turn. Normal opener, short in hearts, support for all other suits.

 

♠ AQxxx

♥ A10x

♦ Kx

♣ Jxx

 

1♠ (3♥) pass (pass)

pass

 

Holding this hand it's obvious that responder can't have a penalty of 3♥.

 

Roland

[Walddk]

More precise: opener is required to reopen with a double, as

long as he happens to hold a shortage in their suit.

After the 3H bid, this is different, now opener should only

reopen the bidding, if he has add. strength, some require more

some less, but all will agree, that a reopening double showes

add. strength.

I don't agree. As long as the shape warrants a reopening double, you should do it with the 12 count jillybean had.

 

Roland

[655321]

Agree with Roland, disagree with P_Marlowe.

[P_Marlowe]

More precise: opener is required to reopen with a double, as

long as he happens to hold a shortage in their suit.

After the 3H bid, this is different, now opener should only

reopen the bidding, if he has add. strength, some require more

some less, but all will agree, that a reopening double showes

add. strength.

I don't agree. As long as the shape warrants a reopening double, you should do it with the 12 count jillybean had.

 

Roland

As I wrote "all will agree", I thought I remembered, that there was no

consens about this, ... I was not sure, but sure, that if I was wrong,

someone would step in.

But than, "12HCP is enough as long as the shape is ok", is also saying,

that you should not reopen with a nondiscriptive min. opener, hence

the reopening showes some add. strength.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jillybean]

I give up, this is all too difficult Maybe Goren isnt such a silly idea after all.

[P_Marlowe]

I give up, this is all too &^& difficult Maybe Goren isnt such a silly idea after all.

Why?

 

Just read Justins post and be done with the topic.

 

I tried just to explain / guess, why your partner said, what he said,

relating the situation to a more common situation.

 

Regarding the question, should you reopen with a double or not:

 

It is a matter of partnership agreement, discuss it, and choose

the style you are comfortable with, you may end up with something,

which may not be 100% best and expert standard, assuming there

does exist an expert standard for the given situation,

but the advantage may not materialize, if you dont feel comfortable.

 

Personnally I need more to feel comfortable, but I am not you, and

I am not Roland either, try it out / discuss it with your REGULAR

partner, ask him, what hand he would expect.

 

If you happen to play with a pickup partner, add. high card strength will

work as a safety net.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Walddk]

I give up, this is all too difficult Maybe Goren isnt such a silly idea after all.

Don't give up; this is not brain surgery, but it's the price you pay for playing negative doubles. By all means, dump them if you like and let double of 3♥ be for penalty, but if you want to play negative doubles (you should!), you must pass if you have a penalty and wait for opener to double on his/her next turn.

 

Then you can convert the take-out double by passing.

 

Conclusion:

After an overcall by 2nd seat, pass from responder is ambiguous:

 

- 1. Responder is weak. He has no bid.

- 2. Responder is strong(ish) with a penalty of the suit overcalled to his right.

 

Roland

[jtfanclub]

If opener can "see" (length in the suit) that responder can't have a penalty, pass is the only sensible bid. Accordingly, responder's pass is not forcing at all. However, with the hand you put forward opener should double on his/her second turn. Normal opener, short in hearts, support for all other suits.

Right.

 

Responder has a hand such that he knows that opener must be short of hearts (unless there was a psyche). Therefore, he had every reason to be surprised when his partner passed.

[mikeh]

Ok, I am going to add to the confusion.

 

I agree, emphatically, that there is no such thing as a forcing pass after partner opens and rho overcalls. it is fundamentally wrong to play pass as forcing, and jb's original partner probably didn't mean to say that it was... just that such a pass encourages partner to consider reopening.

 

Now, should jb have reopened?

 

With the actual hand, yes. But not all minimum hands with shortness reopen.

 

The higher the level, the 'better' one's hand should be in order to reopen, since we often going to be on defence even when partner lacks a trump stack.. he may end up passing as the least of evils, rather than, as on this hand, because he has them nailed in his own hand.

 

I would reopen this hand because it is all controls: it is a good hand for defence (outside of hearts) and a great hand for offence. But with a 12 count full of queens and jacks, asssuming I opened, I'd reluctantly pass.

 

It is important to understand and to accept that negative doubles come with a price. One component of that price is that the opps will occasionally skate away unscathed because opener can't muster up a reopening double. Another component is the flip side of that: opener reopens with a double on a borderline hand, responder can't sit for it, and they get to an ugly high-level contract on inadequate values.

 

Of course, experienced players have learned that these problems are more than offset by the increased accuracy of bidding when responder has a negative double hand...a hand that, in the good old Goren or pre-Goren days, was virtually unbiddable. And negative doubles are not unusual in this regard.... every decision one makes about what meaning to ascribe to a call or to a bidding sequence entails the same type of cost-benefit assessment.

 

So, jb, don't give up.

 

After partner passes an overcall and you have a real opener with relative shortness in their suit, such that partner can have a penalty double, strain to reopen. Reopen with a double UNLESS either you would have pulled a penalty double had he made one or you cannot handle a possible response.

 

Thus with 2=4=1=6, and the LHO overcalls your 1♣ bid with 1♠, you should at least consider 2♣ as your reopening, because, should you double, partner may bid 2♦, where you will be very unhappy unless you have a huge hand and can afford to bid again.

 

When partner held 5 good hearts, and expected 7 on his right, he 'knew' you were short in the suit and thus he expected you to strain to keep the bidding alive.. but he misspoke when he said his pass was forcing.

[pclayton]

Stick with it, but I think you have surpassed the skill level of many of your partners.

 

Note these methods aren't foolproof. There will be some times where you get a silly result like +250 when pard's shape isn't appropriate for a reopening.

[jillybean]

My partner here told me this “anytime opener's partner passes an opps direct overcall, if overcaller's partner passes, opener must reopen with a X” and that didn’t sound right to me. You know that these partners have far more experience than I do, most of them being life masters. Other than the fundamentals, the average ‘expert’ whom I get to play with is not playing what I learn here. It all adds to my confusion and drives me crazy.

[Walddk]

You know that these partners have far more experience than I do, most of them being life masters.

I am not impressed, and you should not be either. "Life master" doesn't necessarily mean that this person is a great player. It does, however, often means that the person has played for decades.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that life masters can't be expert players (many of them are), but I have seen way too many who are not, although they have impressive master point titles.

 

Other than that I am on the same wavelength as mikeh (it hurts, but just for once I have to agree with a Canadian) :)

 

Roland

[SoTired]

My partner here told me this “anytime opener's partner passes an opps direct overcall, if overcaller's partner passes, opener must reopen with a X” and that didn’t sound right to me. You know that these partners have far more experience than I do, most of them being life masters. Other than the fundamentals, the average ‘expert’ whom I get to play with is not playing what I learn here. It all adds to my confusion and drives me crazy.

Summary:

1) For normal overcalls and low level jump overcalls (like this one), responder may pass with a penalty dbl.

2) Responder's pass is not forcing

3) However, Opener should strive to reopen with shortness in opp's suit, either by bidding or by doubling

4) MOST IMPORTANT: Have more faith in your own opinions.

[helene_t]

Roland: Are you guys still fighting over Hans' Oe?

[Walddk]

Roland: Are you guys still fighting over Hans' Oe?

Absolutely! They are still trying to steal our island, the precious Hans Ø. The Canadians can't even type an Ø and yet they have the nerve to claim that it belongs to them. It defies belief!

 

Roland

[Lobowolf]

My partner here told me this “anytime opener's partner passes an opps direct overcall, if overcaller's partner passes, opener must reopen with a X” and that didn’t sound right to me. You know that these partners have far more experience than I do, most of them being life masters. Other than the fundamentals, the average ‘expert’ whom I get to play with is not playing what I learn here. It all adds to my confusion and drives me crazy.

Partner's comment is certainly incorrect. Once upon a time, if responder had doubled 3♥, that would be penalty. Assuming 3♥ is within your range for negative doubles, responder no longer has that option, so opener has to be alert to the possibility that responder had a hand that would have wanted to make a penalty double, and "protect"responder by making a reopening double. As has been pointed out by other people on this thread, that essentially means shortness in the preemptor's suit, because if you have 3 or 4 hearts, there's almost no chance that partner passed because he wanted to defend 3♥X; therefore, his pass would mean that he's broke. When you're short in hearts, then there's an increased chance that partner has hearts behind the preemptor and wants to penalize the opponents; that's when you should be inclined to double (though if that's NOT partner's hand, you're going to be in at least 3♠ opposite a fairly weak hand or a potential 7-card fit, so the double is not totally without risk.

 

Or to put it all another way, with your singleton heart and support for the other suits (if partner doesn't have the hand where he wants to defend 3♥X), THIS is probably a pretty good hand to make a reopening double; however, the notion that you should ALWAYS reopen with a double is 100% wrong.

 

There's a reason Goren is simpler. Bidding has made tremendous progress. Stick with the good stuff.

[jillybean]

On the + side, Ive just learned a lot about reopening doubles :) Thanks for the replies

[Stephen Tu]

Facing a lower level overcall, one reopens with a double with shortness in the overcalled suit and support for the unbids very routinely. You have multiple ways to win, partner can have a penalty pass, you may have a making contract/good sac in another suit, you can push them up a level & beat them.

 

At higher levels (2s+), like here, there are differing schools of thought. One school says opener nearly always reopens with shortness even with minimums. This has the advantage of "getting them" most of the times you are getting them. But it has significant disadvantages as well, more can go wrong. A fairly large portion of the time responder didn't pass because he had a penalty double but couldn't make one, he passed since he was too weak to bid anything. Opener reopens, responder pulls, maybe 4th hand cracks you. Or he has some trump length, gambles a penalty pass, but since both hands are minimum they make it. Or fearing this sort of thing, he pulls, but this goes down while the opp's contract was going down 1 (opener had extras this time), you've pulled a plus to a minus.

 

The second school requires high level re-opening doubles to have extra values also. This makes responder's decisions holding the weaker hands easier, when he pulls this the high 4 level minor contract is more likely to make, if he passes you are more likely to beat it. But the downside is that as responder you can't go for the penalty double as often. With a vulnerable game here & non-vul opps, you simply don't take the chance that opener can't reopen, and just bid 3nt or whatever. You lose the chance at +800 but don't ever bring back +250 either when you are surely 600+ in your own contract.

 

I am firmly in the second camp. Playing negative doubles entails gains on the hands where you have the neg double but losses on some hands where you have a penalty double. If you try to recoup all the penalty doubles by having opener always reopen, my feeling is you lose more in the long run than the gains you pick up on boards like this one.

[jdonn]

I am firmly in the second camp. Playing negative doubles entails gains on the hands where you have the neg double but losses on some hands where you have a penalty double. If you try to recoup all the penalty doubles by having opener always reopen, my feeling is you lose more in the long run than the gains you pick up on boards like this one.

Are you saying you would have passed it out on the actual north hand? I hope not, because that would be quite poor advice. Jilly of course your partner was wrong that you MUST reopen with double, but with perfect shape and great controls like you actually had, you definitely should have doubled. Even if partner makes a marginal penalty pass you will easily be it most of the time.

[Lobowolf]

Even if partner makes a marginal penalty pass you will easily be it most of the time.

Agree with this post in its entirety, but I wanted to add that in my opinion, to the extent that there's a danger, it's not that you won't beat it when partner sits, but that partner might not sit with a hand that's beating it, when the preempt is on the heavy side and the preemptor's partner took a conservative view. I'm pretty sure on the auction that you'll get 5 tricks against hearts, but less sure that you'll get 9 or 10 in partner's suit of choice if he runs.

[Stephen Tu]

Are you saying you would have passed it out on the actual north hand? I hope not, because that would be quite poor advice.

 

Poor why? I am not passing with the South hand playing with the second camp philosophy.

 

If you always double with North hand, you will give South a lot more borderline penalty pass decisions. You are going to bring back -530 more often, and also -100 when +50/ +100 was available.

 

You will get +800 instead of 660 on this board, but I think I will get it back on the other boards when the south/west cards are rearranged. Maybe I'm wrong, but really one has to run a simulation to try & prove things one way or the other rather than just labeling something as "quite poor" with little justification.