Leb Over Reverses?

[jmc]

We have always played lebensol over reverses after 1H-1NT-2S and 1D-1S-2H.

 

Some in our group would now like to stop playing lebensol over reverses here. How do other precision or big club people proceed over the above auctions and why?

 

We are playing precision and our 1D is few as 2. We also play a variable NT either 10-13 or 14-16.

 

jmc

[RichMor]

I don't understand what you mean by 'stop playing reverses'. If you mean that the sequences presented do not show extra values (within a limited Precision context) I suppose that is a playable treatment.

 

I always played these sequences as reverses showing a maximum non-1♣ opener.

 

Responder can Pass or make a non-forcing rebid in:

opener's first suit,

responders suit,

minimum NT,

etc.

 

Does that make sense ?

[jmc]

I edited the above. I meant stop playing lebensol over reverses.

 

ty,

 

jmc

[RichMor]

Ahh, that's more clear.

 

I think you don't need any special methods after a reverse since it is limited to 15HCP. Responder can pass or make a minimum non-forcing rebid.

 

With a better hand, responder can bid game or trot out the fourth suit.

[awm]

It probably depends a bit on exactly what these auctions show.

 

Presumably "maximum values" isn't really enough -- people respond to precision openings pretty light (maybe even lighter than standard) so reversing with typical 5431-type hands about a king lighter than in standard isn't really safe or sensible. My suspicion is that in precision a reverse should guarantee extra shape as well as good values, probably a 6-4 or 6-5 hand, in which case you aren't likely to want to play in 2NT (usually a 6-1 fit at the three-level is better). So if anything, lebensohl seems like a better treatment than in standard, as you are both more likely to want to sign off in partial (opener can be lighter) and less likely to want to play 2NT as a natural contract (opener will be more shapely).

[rbforster]

I like to play these reverses as shapely and NF. With a maximum, say 14-15 and x45x after hearing 1♦-1♠, you rebid 1N if you're in range and 2♦ (or 2♣?) if not. I like leaving the inviting to responder in precision auctions, especially when there's no known fit.

[dake50]

Wouldn't these reverses intend to show 6-5 5-losers, 5-controls: eg. S-xx H-AQxxx D-AKxxxx C-x so pictured very well? Passable or Up-able quite clearly: A side, quack in promotes.

What does leben add?

[awm]

The purpose of lebensohl is to distinguish between forcing and non-forcing preferences to opener's minor. For example: 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥. It is possible that responder has a lousy hand with no real game interest. In this case 3♦ could easily be the right partial (especially since in precision, opener will usually have six diamonds). So we want to be able to bid 3♦ to play. On the other hand, responder is unlimited and opener has shown a maximum with extra shape, so you could also easily have slam here. So we want to be able to bid 3♦ slam try. Finally, it is quite useful to have a forcing "punt" on a hand where we have no known major suit fit but our clubs aren't sufficiently good to bid 3NT, and we want to decide whether to play 3NT or 5♦ or 4♥.

 

Playing "standard" responses we have:

 

(1) 2NT is natural, 3♣ is game force artificial, 3♦ is to play.

 

The issue here is that 3♣ is vague about direction, and if we're interested in a diamond slam we are probably going to be starting cuebidding at the four-level.

 

Playing lebensohl:

 

(2) 2NT shows a signoff hand (force 3♣/3♦), 3♣ is GF "punt", 3♦ is slam try.

 

This is much better when we have a slam try in diamonds, slightly better when we have the "punt" hand (no ambiguity), and slightly better in a signoff auction (because we can get to 3♣ if responder has a weak 4-6 hand and opener has some club length). The main disadvantage to lebensohl is that you lose the ability to play in 2NT. This is a small enough disadvantage that many people still play lebensohl here, but in a precision system where the reverse virtually promises 6♦ and the 2♥ bid itself is not forcing, the set of hands where you want to play in 2NT is vanishingly small.

[pclayton]

A bit off topic, but 15 years ago I played a strong club that contained a 1♦ opener that wasn't limited to 16. 1♦ could contain a 4M-5+ diamond hand with 17-19. In this setting, a more standard Lebensohl / Ingberman structure was sensible. These heavy reverses fit into the system well, since we played 1♣ - 1♦ - 1M as natural and forcing, and we didn't play canape here.

 

If the reverse is NF, you can still play structured reverses. Its useful to be able to make a forcing 3♦ call.