pass forcing, double takeout

[karlson]

I'm thinking of auctions like 1N-dbl-whatever or 1x-dbl-rdbl.

 

I'm under the impression that some people here play that they are forced to some level (i.e. pass is forcing) but double is takeout. I'm trying to understand how this works. For instance, what are you supposed to do if it's passed around to you and you have length in their suit?

[matmat]

Pass, you force them to play in their 5-6 card fit. (p obviously has length as they didn't double...)

[jdonn]

I prefer all doubles penalty on these auctions to go with the force. It keeps them from escaping by playing in some ridiculously bad fit where you both have length and no one can double for takeout, exactly as you describe.

[TimG]

I'm thinking of auctions like 1N-dbl-whatever or 1x-dbl-rdbl.

 

I'm under the impression that some people here play that they are forced to some level (i.e. pass is forcing) but double is takeout.

I'm surprised to hear than anyone plays

 

1H-X-XX-2C; DBL or

1H-X-XX-2C; P-P-DBL

 

as takeout. Even at the one level, I would expect these to show length in the opponents' suit.

[Guest Jlall]

For instance, what are you supposed to do if it's passed around to you and you have length in their suit?

If you have length in their suit it's not supposed to get passed around to you since partner shoud have shortness and make a t/o X. Of course this method can be exploited easily by running to a short suit, but people don't do that so it's fine. In general a lot of methods that are played today are easily exploited but are still not exploited.

[jdonn]

For instance, what are you supposed to do if it's passed around to you and you have length in their suit?

If you have length in their suit it's not supposed to get passed around to you since partner shoud have shortness and make a t/o X. Of course this method can be exploited easily by running to a short suit, but people don't do that so it's fine. In general a lot of methods that are played today are easily exploited but are still not exploited.

Wow I disagree, in particular people often run to 2♣ almost regardless of what they hold there, planning to redouble or run if/when it gets doubled but not minding playing in any contract at all undoubled. Maybe it's just different experiences but I've certainly come across this before, surprised you don't think it's more common.

[Guest Jlall]

For instance, what are you supposed to do if it's passed around to you and you have length in their suit?

If you have length in their suit it's not supposed to get passed around to you since partner shoud have shortness and make a t/o X. Of course this method can be exploited easily by running to a short suit, but people don't do that so it's fine. In general a lot of methods that are played today are easily exploited but are still not exploited.

Wow I disagree, in particular people often run to 2♣ almost regardless of what they hold there, planning to redouble or run if/when it gets doubled but not minding playing in any contract at all undoubled. Maybe it's just different experiences but I've certainly come across this before, surprised you don't think it's more common.

People are obligated to disclose this then, for instance 1N X p 2C I always alert since that is an agreement. I have never seen anyone randomly run to clubs after 1M X XX since they have both pass and 1N available. It is tough to discuss without having a specific auction...can't think of any auctions where people randomly bid clubs.

[Finch]

Let me explain the method. IMO, it's so obviously superior to playing penalty doubles that it amazes me more people don't have this agreement (although it's not uncommon among English experts at least).

 

There are two situations.

1. You are in a low-level forcing pass auction

2. You are in a low-level competitive auction where pass is not forcing

 

The extent to which pass is forcing is a matter of agreement. For example, some common agreements are that

 

- after 1NT and a penalty double, pass is forcing over 2m but not 2M

- after 1suit x xx pass is forcing to 2suit, or that pass is forcing up to 2S

- after 1suit 1NT x pass is forcing at the 2-level, or up to 2suit

- after 1M (2M) x pass is forcing up to 3(M-1)

 

and so forth

 

Let me take these in reverse order.

 

2. If pass is non-forcing, then you can decide whether you prefer double to be penalties or take-out. I think it's superior to play double as take-out just as I play all of 1H 1NT 2S x, or 1NT 2S x, or 2H x 3H x, or 1S (3H) x as take-out, but this is not universal. The general theory is that if they are pre-empting/bidding more than the minimum, it becomes rather less likely that we have a penalty double and more likely that we have a take-out double and want to compete.

 

So, for example, after 1C x xx 2S (where I play pass as NF), because RHO has announced a good spade fit I think it's more likely I have, say, a 1435 14-count that wants to compete rather than a 4333 14-count that wants to penalise.

 

1. This is the case that is being asked about. If pass is forcing, then double is not "take-out" in the truly classical sense, double means "I would pass if you made a penalty double". A pass is thus either a penalty double or some more obscure hand-types.

 

Let's take a simple auction, where we've agreed to play a forcing pass after 1NT x 2C.

 

1NT x 2C x = "take-out" or rather "I am happy to defend if you have a penalty double of clubs"

1NT x 2C P P x = "take-out" or rather "I am happy to defend if you have a penalty double of clubs"

 

If partner passes and you don't have a take-out double, but you would have passed had partner doubled for penalties, you double anyway - knowing they are likely to be about to pull.

 

What's the point of inverting pass and double?

 

If either member of the partnership has a penalty double it all comes to the same thing. One of you doubles, the other passes, no difference to playing double as penalties.

 

The real benefit comes when they have lucked out and found a fit.

 

Suppose you have a 4432 18-count. RHO opens a weak NT and you double. LHO bids 2C, natural. You are playing penalty doubles, and partner makes a forcing pass. What are you supposed to bid? Guess a 4-card major? Cue-bid, and force the 3-level opposite what could be a weak hand?

 

If you were playing take-out doubles, partner doubled for take-out and you bid the lowest one of your 4-card suits. Easy game.

 

As a bonus, you get to define all sorts of new auctions - what's the difference between bidding at once over a pull, and passing then bidding over the take-out double? What about an immediate cue vs. pass then cue? Immediate jump vs pass then jump?

[jdonn]

I don't understand the point of this at all Frances.

 

how is

 

1NT X 2♣ X

P ???

 

when playing your way, any less of a guess than

 

1NT X 2♣ P

P ???

 

when playing penalty doubles? They show identical hands unless I'm totally misunderstanding.