Signal obvious shift or encourage ?

[sathyab]

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=sk7hjt42daq4cq972&e=s93h65dk9732cj863]266|200|p-p-1h-p

p-1s-p-1nt

p-3c-p-5c[/hv]

 

A hand from an IMP game on BBO yesterday.

 

Partner leads the ♥A (A from AK). How would you signal if you were 1) playing Obvious Shift 2) Not playing Obvious shift ?

[kfay]

I would call for the obvious shift. Looks like I really want to set up my ♦K right now.

[mikeh]

I don't understand the question. Isn't this a count situation, where obvious switch has no application?

[jdonn]

I don't understand the question. Isn't this a count situation, where obvious switch has no application?

Sure looks like it to me. The most important thing is knowing if we can cash another heart or not. Why would partner ever have to shift to a diamond UNLESS another heart was not cashing?

[kenrexford]

Whereas I think there is a slight problem here (hence, why I like Rusinow on if the contract is at the five-level or higher), in that partner might be leading the Ace from Ace-empty in both red suits, looking for which red King I might have, the diamond Ace on dummy kind of kills that thought. So, it sure seems like obvious count to me.

[cherdano]

Sathya, on the actual hand the lead was K (A from AK).

[mikeh]

Sathya, on the actual hand the lead was K (A from AK).

Many who lead the A from AK reverse this at a high-level (most I have seen play A through the 4 level and K thereafter) because it is at the high levels that one most often needs to cash out, and one most often leads an unsupported A, so that the A asks attitude on the King, while the K asks count in order to know if the A cashs. I assumed, however, from the OP that the lead for this pair promised the K, and so we were still in the count situation.

[sathyab]

I don't understand the question. Isn't this a count situation, where obvious switch has no application?

Sure looks like it to me. The most important thing is knowing if we can cash another heart or not. Why would partner ever have to shift to a diamond UNLESS another heart was not cashing?

Scanario 1:

 

You gave honest count and partner figured out that a second heart would cash ? Even then there's a case to be made for a switch as cashing the second heart might set up a discard that you can't ruff out, which might matter in a slightly different setting,

 

Scenario 2:

 

You gave honest count, partner figured out that a second heart would not cash. Now what ? He still doesn't know if there's any safety in switching. Most likely he would continue passively and the defense may learn later that they ought to have switched.

 

My understanding of Obvious Shift is that even in situations that call for count playing standard signals, OS'ers prefer a "compound attitude' signal instead. Count signals do conflict with Obvious Shift signals quite often. Say you lead A from AK against a major suit game and see Qxx(x) in dummy. It's standard for partner to give count in this situation, unless you're playing Obvious Shift signals. You may have noticed that I did factor that in the way I phrased the question.

[cherdano]

On the actual hand, it was trivial for partner to switch to a diamond if he know the second heart is not cashing.

[mike777]

My understanding of "OS" is that the play to trick one is almost always attitude.

Do you want partner to continue or make the "OS" shift or the unobvious shift?

 

 

In this case we play highest heart if we want another H at trick two....a low heart if we want a D shift, assuming partner does not read it as a stiff.

 

In this deal I just play high H ..low heart. D at trick three does not seem that tough to find.

[gwnn]

I'm a simple person, usually when I lead from AK I would like to cash both. Obvious Shift would at least imply that whenever one leads from AK it would be somehow obvious to shift, or at least it's what will happen often enough that information about other suits is more valuable than information about the AK suit. I think that's a misguided idea.

 

ps: The idea from the book Andy (Gnasher) showed the forum a few weeks back -A/Q for attitude, K for count- is great.

[cherdano]

Declarer's most likely shapes are 5125 and 5215. If the former, partner knows the best bet is a diamond shift at trick 2. If the latter, he can just cash a second heart. The talk about shifting at trick 3 is irrelevant.

[pclayton]

I would discourage hearts. If pard wanted to know the heart count, he would have led the King (and it sounds like he should have anyway).

 

Obvious Shift should apply in this situation.

[mike777]

Declarer's most likely shapes are 5125 and 5215. If the former, partner knows the best bet is a diamond shift at trick 2. If the latter, he can just cash a second heart. The talk about shifting at trick 3 is irrelevant.

Yes , agree playing OS there is always the higher rule that one must use their bridge knowledge and experience to override whatever partner plays or does not play.....This is rule one in OS. So OS applies just make sure to not ignore rule one :) The point of playing OS is it always applies......just do not forget rule one. :)

[sathyab]

I would discourage hearts. If pard wanted to know the heart count, he would have led the King (and it sounds like he should have anyway).

 

Obvious Shift should apply in this situation.

The opening lead was indeed the King. I misreported it as he Ace when I posted the hand.

[pclayton]

I would discourage hearts. If pard wanted to know the heart count, he would have led the King (and it sounds like he should have anyway).

 

Obvious Shift should apply in this situation.

The opening lead was indeed the King. I misreported it as he Ace when I posted the hand.

Then I signal count. I'm a good partner :)

[Free]

You want to show your ♦K, but you can't because it's an obvious count situation...

[cherdano]

Sathya, on the actual hand the lead was K (A from AK).

Many who lead the A from AK reverse this at a high-level (most I have seen play A through the 4 level and K thereafter) because it is at the high levels that one most often needs to cash out, and one most often leads an unsupported A, so that the A asks attitude on the King, while the K asks count in order to know if the A cashs. I assumed, however, from the OP that the lead for this pair promised the K, and so we were still in the count situation.

Actually, I was opening leader on this hand playing with an occasional partner, certainly no agreements beyond the implied "standard honor leads (A from AK)". I led the king to increase the chance that my partner would give count. (Partner is good but not very experienced.)