Pass or 2S?

[pclayton]

Matchpoints, no one vul.

 

♠AJ9xxx ♥x♦AJxx ♣xx

 

Pass - (1♦) - 1♠ - (dbl);

Pass - (1N) - ?

 

Say you pass for now. It continues (pass) - 2♥ (by pard) - (pass) - ?. Do you sit or do you bid 2♠?

[Guest Jlall]

If I had passed I would pull 2H to 2S. I would not have passed at MP w/w. I also would have overcalled 2S to begin with with pard being a PH.

[xcurt]

It's mandatory to push them off the white 1NT at mps. I would have bid 2♠ over 1NT last turn.

 

I'll guess to pull 2♥ to 2♠ now.

 

Agree with Jlall about 2♠ the first time but I've come around to preferring some form of intermediate or conventional jump overcalls since the preemptive value at the 2-level is so much less once the opponents have named one suit.

[benlessard]

Selling to 1Nt or 2H is just plain bad. Also a direct 2S is much better (even 3S is probably better than 1S)

[pclayton]

I agree with all of these comments. This auction was given to me by someone else, so what you have in front of you is what you get.

 

The crux of our discussion was whether or not 2♥ promised spade tolerance.

[han]

With hearts and spade tolerance partner might have redoubled.

[pclayton]

With hearts and spade tolerance partner might have redoubled.

This is what the actual hand should have done IMO. It was Tx AQxxx xxx KJx.

[SoTired]

The crux of our discussion was whether or not 2♥ promised spade tolerance.

I don't think it matters whether 2H "promises" spade tolerance. A 2S correction will almost certainly improve the final contract.

[Guest Jlall]

The crux of our discussion was whether or not 2♥ promised spade tolerance.

I don't think it matters whether 2H "promises" spade tolerance. A 2S correction will almost certainly improve the final contract.

Those are my thoughts also.

[jdonn]

I don't think it matters whether 2H "promises" spade tolerance. A 2S correction will almost certainly improve the final contract.

Those are my thoughts also.

I don't agree, if 2♥ does not promise spade tolerance then I think pass is clearly a better bid and hearts will probably play very well opposite our two aces. Of course in practice, unless you have some clear agreement about this auction, bidding 2♠ seems obvious since it's very right if 2♥ showed spade tolerance and not so bad if it didn't. And personally I would never expect it does.

[jdonn]

Sorry I misstated a little. I said pass is better if partner doesn't promise spade tolerance, but what I meant is pass is better if partner doesn't have spade tolerance. If he doesn't promise it but may have it I would not pass, but I would think it's fairly close. My point is that if partner is 1-6 in the majors, I expect hearts to play better.

[pclayton]

Sorry I misstated a little. I said pass is better if partner doesn't promise spade tolerance, but what I meant is pass is better if partner doesn't have spade tolerance. If he doesn't promise it but may have it I would not pass, but I would think it's fairly close. My point is that if partner is 1-6 in the majors, I expect hearts to play better.

The hand was originally presented to me without stating the 2=5=3=3 hand passed initially. I think the OP has a tough decision over 2♥ in that case.

 

I also don't like a WJO unless pard was a PH.

[ochinko]

It is an opening hand, but since partner has passed there's not much risk of missing a game, so I tend to overcall 2♠ instead of 1♠ with such a hand. Plus, if partner decides to compete solely on the number of trumps (remember the Law?), we'll either get a good score or make a good save.

[the hog]

Agree with 2S the first time around. Agree with 2S now. Partner's H bid should show S tolerance.

[kenrexford]

Very similar thoughts to what has been presented so far, with some observations.

 

1. I agree that 2♠ immediately is right. I would note that not bidding 2♠ when it is right makes a delayed 2♠ call wrong because it shows a different hand. I would expect 1♠, and then an immediate 2♠, to be bid with a hand that would make an invitational J.O. had the vulnerability been different. You cannot take back a poor decision later in the auction -- that initial decision defines later actions.

 

2. I don't think that a redouble of 1♠ should show hearts and spade tolerance. That seems weird to me. I would expect a redouble to be more frequently used for showing/denying the Ace or King of spades (if you play that way, whether Rosenkranz or Reverse Rosenkranz) or, if not, then clubs with spade tolerance (snapdragon). Hearts with spade tolerance would never occur to me, even if playable.

 

3. Because of (1) and (2), I would expect this delayed 2♥ call to show hearts with spade tolerance. However, I would also expect an immediate 2♥ to usually show spade tolerance, which is weird. For me, this redundancy would be resolved because I would want 2♦ to be natural and an immediate 2♥ a power spade raise, after discussion. If that technique was not used, then I suppose an immediate 2♥ is stronger (?).

 

4. I would not be in this situation, but I suppose now I must bid 2♠.

 

5. I suppose it is playable for this delayed 2♥ to show hearts and clubs, and hence no spade tolerance, but I would only expect that meaning only if the opponents had sent 2♦ back to partner. Still, that seems weird.

[jdonn]

2. I don't think that a redouble of 1♠ should show hearts and spade tolerance. That seems weird to me. I would expect a redouble to be more frequently used for showing/denying the Ace or King of spades (if you play that way, whether Rosenkranz or Reverse Rosenkranz) or, if not, then clubs with spade tolerance (snapdragon). Hearts with spade tolerance would never occur to me, even if playable.

I would think it just shows relatively balanced values, in which case a later 2♥ would certainly show spade tolerance.

[kenrexford]

2. I don't think that a redouble of 1♠ should show hearts and spade tolerance.  That seems weird to me.  I would expect a redouble to be more frequently used for showing/denying the Ace or King of spades (if you play that way, whether Rosenkranz or Reverse Rosenkranz) or, if not, then clubs with spade tolerance (snapdragon).  Hearts with spade tolerance would never occur to me, even if playable.

I would think it just shows relatively balanced values, in which case a later 2♥ would certainly show spade tolerance.

I don't think you can have a redouble be "all-purpose" here. If I could have a snapdragon-style shape, I'll look silly when partner bids 3♣ after a 3-card heart raise by Opener. Move the sixth spade to the club suit as the Queen, a hand with more HCP value, and that may be the result.

[jdonn]

2. I don't think that a redouble of 1♠ should show hearts and spade tolerance.  That seems weird to me.  I would expect a redouble to be more frequently used for showing/denying the Ace or King of spades (if you play that way, whether Rosenkranz or Reverse Rosenkranz) or, if not, then clubs with spade tolerance (snapdragon).  Hearts with spade tolerance would never occur to me, even if playable.

I would think it just shows relatively balanced values, in which case a later 2♥ would certainly show spade tolerance.

I don't think you can have a redouble be "all-purpose" here. If I could have a snapdragon-style shape, I'll look silly when partner bids 3♣ after a 3-card heart raise by Opener. Move the sixth spade to the club suit as the Queen, a hand with more HCP value, and that may be the result.

Lol what?? You are saying the opponents will compete in a non-fit, and then overcaller will bid a three card club suit on the 3 level when his partner hasn't promised clubs, simply because his partner could have them. That's exactly what you are saying will (may) happen! How can I possibly take you seriously :D

[Tcyk]

Matchpoints, no one vul.

 

♠AJ9xxx ♥x♦AJxx ♣xx

 

Pass - (1♦) - 1♠ - (dbl);

Pass - (1N) - ?

 

Say you pass for now. It continues (pass) -  2♥ (by pard) - (pass) - ?. Do you sit or do you bid 2♠?

I don't find 1S and the pass so objectionable. I have a nice spade suit and an opening hand (rule of 20). The pass shows a minimum hand and there is also some probability the 1NT can be set. Now, what about 2H? The double (negative I presume) promised four hearts. Partner is aware of this. I pass. Partner bid them, he gets to play them. He is telling me that he only has one or perhaps no spades and he believes his hearts will play better than my spades. He didn't open with a preempt. That seems to point to a spade void or long hearts lacking in top honors or both.

 

My early mentor was Dennis Dawson. He always said "Support support." When he overcalled a suit, the one thing he wanted to know was, "Did I have support for his suit?" If I bid another suit, it showed that I had no tolerance for his suit.

 

The pass of the double is perhaps a little troubling. A redouble would have shown three spades. It couldn't have been a trap pass. If he has long hearts there is no way the opening bidder could have four. This again supports my opinion that the hearts are long without top honors.