19 is not 20

[jillybean]

[hv=d=s&v=a&n=saj3h974dak983cj9&w=st65hjdt654ct7653&e=s987hkq86532d2cq8&s=skq42hatdqj7cak42]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     2NT

 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♥

 Pass  7NT   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

 

oops

[jtfanclub]

All yer hands are starting to look alike to me.

 

The problem here isn't that they opened 2NT with 19 instead of 20. It's that North went to 7NT knowing that they had 33-35 hcp, and knowing nothing else about partner's hand except that he's balanced with 2 aces.

[mike777]

[hv=d=s&v=a&n=saj3h974dak983cj9&w=st65hjdt654ct7653&e=s987hkq86532d2cq8&s=skq42hatdqj7cak42]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     2NT

 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♥

 Pass  7NT   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

 

and another

 

[hv=d=s&v=a&n=saj3h974dak983cj9&w=st65hjdt654ct7653&e=s987hkq86532d2cq8&s=skq42hatdqj7cak42]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     2NT

 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♥

 Pass  7NT   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

jB what is 4nt?

[jillybean]

Err try this,

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sa9762hqdak53c963&w=s5hkt76432dcqt752&e=sj843h95dq7642c84&s=skqthaj8djt98cakj]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     2NT

 4♥    5♥    Pass  5♠

 Pass  6♠    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

 

I dont know what 4nt on the other board was (I was kibitzer) , everyone misplays it

and answers in Aces, or keycard, or who knows :)

[Lobowolf]

[hv=d=s&v=a&n=saj3h974dak983cj9&w=st65hjdt654ct7653&e=s987hkq86532d2cq8&s=skq42hatdqj7cak42]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     2NT

 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♥

 Pass  7NT   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

 

oops

Were you playing 4NT as Blackwood? After a 2NT opener, the standard treatment would be that 4♣ is ace asking, and 4NT asks opener to either pass or bid 6NT. Here, with a balanced 13, responder knows that the partnership has 33 or 34 points (well, North THINKS (s)/he knows that), and the bidding should go 2NT-6NT, as N has no independent, reliable source of tricks.

 

That being said, the same type of thing could happen after 2NT - 4♣, so the hand is good for teaching a valuable lesson...when it comes to bidding slams, aces aren't everything!

[fred]

It seems like a lot of players think it is smart to open 2NT with random 19 HCP hands despite playing that 2NT is supposed to show 20-21.

 

This is what I would call "losing bridge" for a number of reasons:

 

1) It is an obviously an overbid (you will sometimes get too high for no reason) that offers no clear upside.

 

2) As you may have noticed, bidding accurately after a 2NT opening is not easy even for serious partnerships who have put a lot of work into this. Forcing yourself to use 2NT sequences more often than you have to does not exactly maximize your chances of getting to the right contract.

 

3) The concept of fooling around when you almost certainly have the best hand at the table very much goes against the grain for me. Who are you trying to fool? Your partner? Fooling the opponents is unlikely to gain much when you have a strong balanced hand.

 

4) Bad for partnership confidence. When your partner notices that you are opening 19-point 2NTs for no particular reason, it is natural for him/her to wonder "maybe my partner does not want me to play the hand?".

 

Sure there are some 19-counts that are really worth 20-21. By all means open 2NT with these hands if you are feeling so inclined. But opening 2NT with "normal" 19-counts (like the ones you present here) is just plain bad (IMO).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Lobowolf]

When I say the auction "should" go 2NT - 6NT, I mean a simple, straightforward auction; pairs may also use methods to see if there's a 5-3 major suit fit, etc. A Puppet Stayman auction might go: 2NT - 3♣; 3NT - 6NT. (3NT denying a 4- or 5-card major).

[Lobowolf]

Last caveat - I agree with Fred regarding opening 2NT; I was only discussing the auction AFTER the 2NT opener. I've found that at the intermediate/novice level, players REALLY try to contort themselves around sequences where it takes more than one bid to describe a hand. What if someone overcalls or preempts before I get to jump to 2NT? What if partner bids at the 2-level, then 2NT wouldn't be a jump? If I just add one little point, I can tell my whole story now...except for the part about having 20 points, of course. There is a group of players at my local club who open 2C with 18-19 for this reason, and 2D for 22+. Not a good method, to say the least, but they're just really uncomfortable with opening a hand that strong at the 1-level.

[SoTired]

So then your 2N opening is 19-21, not 20-21. And if it is 19-21, sometimes you might stretch and open an 18 with 2N. Or a really good 17. So you open 2N with 18 and it goes pass out, down 3, while everybody else is in 1C making 1 or 2. No Problem. Chalk it up to bad luck and move on to the next deal.

[jillybean]

So then your 2N opening is 19-21, not  20-21. And if it is 19-21, sometimes you might stretch and open an 18 with 2N. Or a really good 17. So you open 2N with 18 and it goes pass out, down 3, while everybody else is in 1C making 1 or 2. No Problem. Chalk it up to bad luck and move on to the next deal.

Are you serious?

 

Smart ass sarcasm in this forum is very unhelpful.

[blackshoe]

There is a group of players at my local club who open 2C with 18-19 for this reason, and 2D for 22+. Not a good method, to say the least, but they're just really uncomfortable with opening a hand that strong at the 1-level.

Then they should learn to play Precision, or Romex. :)

[Walddk]

4) Bad for partnership confidence. When your partner notices that you are opening 19-point 2NTs for no particular reason, it is natural for him/her to wonder "maybe my partner does not want me to play the hand?".

In most instances, not least regarding online bridge with a pick-up partner, this is no doubt the crux of the matter I am sorry to say.

 

Roland

[SoTired]

So then your 2N opening is 19-21, not  20-21. And if it is 19-21, sometimes you might stretch and open an 18 with 2N. Or a really good 17. So you open 2N with 18 and it goes pass out, down 3, while everybody else is in 1C making 1 or 2. No Problem. Chalk it up to bad luck and move on to the next deal.

Are you serious?

 

Smart ass sarcasm in this forum is very unhelpful.

If you open an ordinary 19 with 2N, then your 2N range is actually 19-21. The rest follows logically. Since you were willing to open an ordinary 19 when the range was 20-21, why not an ordinary 18 when the range is 19-21? I was just continuing the logic that the 2N bidder laid down.

 

I was serious, not sarcastic. I was trying to show how the 2N with an ordinary 19 is not good bridge. I was trying to be helpful. I was also trying to explain how some would not learn anything from bad boards caused by it.

 

I will not try to help again.

[jillybean]

So you open 2N with 18 and it goes pass out, down 3, while everybody else is in 1C making 1 or 2. No Problem. Chalk it up to bad luck and move on to the next deal.

This is helpful advice and not sarcasm? I obviously just missed the helpful advice here, "Chalk it up to bad luck and move on to the next deal."

[han]

Somewhere there should be a jillybean-proof forum, where everybody answers politely in a straightforward manner, bids der hands and posts smillies whenever the slightest bit of humor is involved. ;)

[jillybean]

Fair enough, let this be where the experts have their fun.

 

I try to take this seriously and sarcastic, bad advice is the last thing I need.

[kenrexford]

I recently counted the 2NT openings appearing in some international event and was surprised to see that 19-count 2NT openings made up about two thirds to three fourths of all 2NT openings. I then went and checked convention cards, noticing only two pairs that marked the card "19+" as the low end. Some 19-count openings were by people with 21-22 listed!

 

I then checked for the features yielding these calls. Nothing outstanding, just subtle adjustments like 4432 or control-rich or 10's.

 

That said, this hand does not seem to qualify, IMO. The control count is 6, which is slightly high for a 19-count, but not by enough to warrant an adjustment up (in other words -- too many Queens). The 10 is poorly placed. Although the 4432 pattern is nice, the two four-card suits have no body. Thus, ultimately I agree with the response that 2NT is a bit rich for this hand.

[neilkaz]

Funny bidding on the initial board ( I think you said you kibitzed). A routine 19 count opened 2NT and then a passable quant 4NT (at least I play it as quant) which was responded to as Blackwood, (that's common noting PD may not have been sure what 4NT meant if pickups) followed by a "let's get lucky" jump to 7NT which needs some good fortunes, especially if PD can't help ♦ to run 5 tricks.

 

After seeing a 2NT opening an immediate jump to 6NT is clear, unless playing puppet and deciding to look for a 5 card major, after which the auction goes 2NT-3♣-3NT-6NT.

 

I see quite a few players listing 2NT as 19-21 and some with 1NT as 15-18 in addition. Do they not understand opening 1 of a suit and then jumping to 2NT ?

 

.. neilkaz ..

[NickRW]

I see quite a few players listing 2NT as 19-21 and some with 1NT as 15-18 in addition. Do they not understand opening 1 of a suit and then jumping to 2NT ?

 

.. neilkaz ..

Well, maybe. Probably more of a problem that folks new to the game want to "learn bids" and don't get the notion that it is a language that encompasses painting a picture of a hand over 2 or 3 or more turns.

[brianshark]

Anyone who responds with aces to a 4NT quantitative bid should be shot.

[ASkolnick]

I actually disagree with the responding Aces to quantatative to be shot.

 

There are plenty of good reasons to do it, assuming that it is not required to respond Aces to quantative, I know 2 reasonable methods to play over 2N-4N.

 

1) Bid your minor. (5 card,4 card whatever method) Sometimes you need to play in a suit for your 12th trick.

 

2) Shiow Aces. Let's take 1N (15-17). I am holding a good 16 point hand with some T,9's. (1N-4N). OK. I also have a good 16, wouldn't be a good idea to make sure I am not off 2 Aces before bidding to slam even we both have max's.

 

Now, with a minimum in either case, you should pass.

[jtfanclub]

I actually disagree with the responding Aces to quantatative to be shot.

That's the way I play it...pass if you have a minimum, show aces with a max.

 

There are other reasons why it might help. Partner may want to play in 6NT if we have all the aces but 6 of a minor if we're missing one, for example.

 

Especially in MPs, I think it's people who bid 6NT over a quant 4NT who should be shot. How do you know partner wanted to play the slam in no-trump, instead of a minor?

[TylerE]

What I play with one partner is:

 

 

Pass = Minimum

Show Aces = Unsure wether to blast or not, but not dead minimum.

Bid 6N = Max

[mike777]

I actually disagree with the responding Aces to quantatative to be shot.

That's the way I play it...pass if you have a minimum, show aces with a max.

 

There are other reasons why it might help. Partner may want to play in 6NT if we have all the aces but 6 of a minor if we're missing one, for example.

 

Especially in MPs, I think it's people who bid 6NT over a quant 4NT who should be shot. How do you know partner wanted to play the slam in no-trump, instead of a minor?

I assume partner wants to play in nt because she bid/rebid quant 4nt. If she wants to play in something else I assume she bids otherwise. B) Esp. At MP.

I just pass or bid 6nt why tell the opp anything.

[brianshark]

Well I was primarily talking about people who don't know they can pass 4NT.

 

Having said that, I've never bid a quantitative slam to find myself off 2 cashing aces. If the points add up, you've got the controls.

 

And regarding showing natual suits over a quant NT, I guess there's some merit to that. But I'd say some form of minor suit stayman would do a better job because you would have more space. If responder isn't interested, opener shouldn't tell.