Have I got it all wrong?

[Wackojack]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sak62hak1087dq4ca5]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

We are playing 2/1. Partner, although not a very experienced player, I know has been well coached in the system. I haven't.

 

RHO passes. Slightly tempted to open 2NT, but decide on opening 1♥.

LHO passes and partner responds 1NT.

RHO passes. Since I know my partner does not have 4 spades I jump to 3NT not expecting any further bidding.

LHO passes and now partner bids 4♥.

RHO passes. I think. Why did partner not respond 2♥ in the first place? It must be that he was planning to jump on the next round to 3♥ with an invitational hand with 3 hearts. Now I can see a likely slam, so I cue 4♠.

LHO doubles. Just a noise since he did not overcall. Partner passes.

RHO passes. I cue 5♣.

LHO passes and partner bids 5♦.

RHO passes. Just what I wanted to hear. Partner has something like xx, Qxx, AKxx, Jxxx. I will just content myself with 6♥. LHO and partner pass and surprisingly RHO doubles. I think bad break in hearts, and possibly KQ to a few clubs. Glad that I have been warned.

 

Am I off beam or not? What did partner really have?

[TylerE]

Sounds about right to me, although to me partner is only promising the K♦. Wouldn't be shocked if RHO had A♦ and Jxxx of hearts.

 

EDIT: Meant to say that I think 2N opening is clear on this. Closer to 2♣ - ?? - 2NT than 1♥ for me. This hand is why you play puppet.

[jdonn]

I hate the 3NT rebid, even if partner can't have four spades you want to describe your hand. It lets partner show a long minor, distinguish a very weak heart raise that bid 1NT from a limit raise, find good 5-2 heart fits, see if a suit is not stopped for 3NT, etc. There is no reason to just assume 3NT is where we belong and waste all the room.

 

Now for all you know partner reasonably thought your 3NT rebid showed solid hearts with some outside stoppers. That's what I think has probably happened here.

[SoTired]

I agree with Jdonn. The 1M-1NF-3N is supposed to show 15-17 HCP and 6 solid M, not a 20 HCP semi-balanced hand. If responder has a couple of hearts and an short suit, or a weak 3-card raise, responder may have decided that 4H is better than 3N.

 

I was taught that responder shows a 3-card limit raise in the 1M-1N-3M auction, which should be the same for 1M-1N-3N, by q-bidding a minor suit.

[han]

Agree with 2S, what happened later isn't as interesting.

[helene_t]

No matter how I think p interprets 3N I would think he had 5-6 points with 3-card heart support.

[Guest movingon]

I agree with Helene.

If you play constructive raises, partner has to bid 1nt with a weak hand and 3 hearts.

[dicklont]

After 4♥ partner can have a weak hand with 3 hearts.

He would have bid 2♥ over 2♣/♦.

 

I think 3NT is not necessary, 2♠ reverse is forcing and very descriptive.

 

After opening 2NT you have a problem over 3♣ Puppet Stayman.

Answering 3♥ shows five but tends to deny 4 spades.

It is probably best to answer 3♦ and be able to play any available 4-4 major fit.

 

The one time I remember that an opponent did just that they ended in 3NT.

My partner lead a small heart, 4th highest, which was a good lead against leaders expected 4 card heart suit.

As it was the lead gave away the ninth trick.

[mike777]

Dealer: East Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ AK62 ♥ AK1087 ♦ Q4 ♣ A5

We are playing 2/1.  Partner, although not a very experienced player, I know has been well coached in the system.  I haven't.

 

RHO passes.  Slightly tempted to open 2NT, but decide on opening 1♥.

LHO passes and partner responds 1NT. 

RHO passes.  Since I know my partner does not have 4 spades I jump to 3NT not expecting any further bidding.

LHO passes and now partner bids 4♥. 

RHO passes.  I think.  Why did partner not respond 2♥ in the first place?  It must be that he was planning to jump on the next round to 3♥ with an invitational hand with 3 hearts.  Now I can see a likely slam, so I cue 4♠. 

LHO doubles.  Just a noise since he did not overcall.  Partner passes.

RHO passes.  I cue 5♣. 

LHO passes and partner bids 5♦. 

RHO passes.  Just what I wanted to hear.  Partner has something like xx, Qxx, AKxx, Jxxx.  I will just content myself with 6♥.  LHO and partner pass and surprisingly RHO doubles.  I think bad break in hearts, and possibly KQ to a few clubs.  Glad that I have been warned.

 

Am I off beam or not?  What did partner really have?

rebid 2s over 1nt... why invent 3nt?

I try and bid my hand

partner tries to bid hers.

[kenrexford]

2♠ is absolutely right unless playing in a speedball swiss or something. Bid the hand out.

 

4♥ shows a P.O.C. 3-piece raise. With a limit raise, Responder cues something. If he has no minor cues to make, he pretentds he has a P.O.C. 3-piece raise because we don't have a slam anyway.

 

I would take 5♦ as something like three hearts and a stiff diamond.

 

Qxx-xxx-x-xxxxxx is possible. If you catch someone woith Q-J tight in hearts and three or fewer spades, this is a great contract. I suppose you might also make if Dummy has the heart Jack, with the Qx in hearts in either hand and accompanied by three or fewer spades.

[EricK]

It's very much a matter of bridge philosophy, but 3NT is not at all a bad bid IMO. You are going to end up in 3NT a huge proportion of the time so why tell the opponents what to lead?

[the hog]

It's very much a matter of bridge philosophy, but 3NT is not at all a bad bid IMO. You are going to end up in 3NT a huge proportion of the time so why tell the opponents what to lead?

I am ambivalent about this. To some extent I agree with you about bashing games.

However what is poor partner supposed to do over 3NT with

xxx

xx

x

KQJxxxx

 

How are you going to have a chance to reach 6C, when pd could have a huge variety of hand shapes. Playing MPs I think you DO have a valid point.

[Wackojack]

It's very much a matter of bridge philosophy, but 3NT is not at all a bad bid IMO. You are going to end up in 3NT a huge proportion of the time so why tell the opponents what to lead?

I am ambivalent about this. To some extent I agree with you about bashing games.

However what is poor partner supposed to do over 3NT with

xxx

xx

x

KQJxxxx

 

How are you going to have a chance to reach 6C, when pd could have a huge variety of hand shapes. Playing MPs I think you DO have a valid point.

 

I am in the mood for argument.

 

Yes indeed. Suppose I do bid 2♠ on this hand and partner responds 3♣. What do I bid now? 4♣? I dont think we would have the machinery to get to 6♣ with any certainty. In any case partner would probably remove my 3NT bid to 5♣.

 

Going back to what partner might have for his bid in the actual auction, I have no idea what a 3-piece POC raise is. Also if partner removed my 3NT to 4♣ I would assume it was the weak clubs type of hand above.

 

BTW I know my partner does not play constructive raises. That is why I assumed that he would raise with 3 cards below invitational level. I have always assumed that a 1NT response would deny 3 card support unless it was up to the invitational level. After my partner informs me that a 1NT response is 5-12HCP and a raise 6-10. Frankly, I hate this. I hate the sneaky 1NT response with 3 card support to show weakeness. Maybe this is an old fashioned view, but I like partner to support immediately with 3 card support and 5HCP. With less normally pass.

I hate making 1NT a dustbin bid. The advantage of 2/1 as I saw it is thet you could more easily get to slams after a 2/1 bid. Thus you have to load up the 1NT response. But dont load it up more than you need.

 

Going back to my 3NT bid supposedly showing a solid heart suit. OK I did not know this. I was only aware that it would be so after a minor suit opening. Nevertheless, suppose partner had a 3334 and decided not to raise, prefering to go through the 1NT route. Then I would not expect him to take out 3NT. After all if he reads me for solid hearts, then 3NT may well be the only making game.

 

Quote"rebid 2s over 1nt... why invent 3nt?

I try and bid my hand

partner tries to bid hers"

 

I always thought that when you bid 3NT it meant "I think I can make 3NT based on information so far" Hardly seems invented. Indeed the solid suit notion is the invention.

 

End of rant for the time being. Maybe I should not try to play 2/1 and stick to Acol SAYC or variable club.

 

Will respond further, but may not have access to a computer fo a week.

[helene_t]

If you play constrictive raises, I suppose the POC (does that mean Piece-Of-Crap?) raise would take 3NT out to 4♥ while the limit raise would bid 5♥ (or maybe 4♠) unless playing some Rexfordian continuations after 3NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

your reasoning is ok, as long as you dont play

constructive raises, because now the correction

3NT to 4H simply showes, that partner has 3 card

support and usually 4-7 HCP.

 

Constructive raises are quite often part of 2/1.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

Yes indeed. Suppose I do bid 2♠ on this hand and partner responds 3♣. What do I bid now? 4♣? I dont think we would have the machinery to get to 6♣ with any certainty. In any case partner would probably remove my 3NT bid to 5♣.

.

Absoultely bid 4C, because if pd finds a 4D cue you are off and running. Was this so hard?

[fred]

RHO passes. Since I know my partner does not have 4 spades

You don't know this. There are at least 2 families of hands for which responder should bid 1NT despite holding 4 spades:

 

1) A weak hand with 4 spades and 3 hearts. For example:

 

xxxx

Axx

Qxx

xxx

 

If this hand is not strong enough for 2H (most 2/1 players would agree), it is better to bid 1NT than 1S. The reason is that partner might raise 1S to 2S with 3-card support thereby putting you in a ridiculous contract. Even if you play that a raise to 2S "promises" 4-card support (unplayable in my view), bidding 1S on a hand like this will not exactly help partner to evaluate his hand.

 

2) A hand with a 4 spades and a long, strong minor. For example:

 

xxxx

x

x

AJ10xxxx

 

Most likely you belong in a low-level club contract. Good luck getting there after you respond 1S.

 

Something else you should know: many (most? all?) serious 2/1 players use the sequence 1H-1NT-3NT to suggest something like 6322 with strong hearts and close to a 2NT opening in terms of high cards. If you play that way and if responder bids 4H next, he is not "showing" anything in particular - he is simply opting for 4H rather than 3NT (and he could easily have a doubleton heart). When the bidding goes this way you are supposed to pass without looking at your hand.

 

Even without this "normal" agreement regarding the 3NT rebid, I agree with the majority that 2S is the correct rebid with this hand.

 

Suggestion for advanced players: use transfers after 1H-1NT-2S

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

RHO passes.  Since I know my partner does not have 4 spades

You don't know this. There are at least 2 families of hands for which responder should bid 1NT despite holding 4 spades:

 

1) A weak hand with 4 spades and 3 hearts. For example:

 

xxxx

Axx

Qxx

xxx

 

If this hand is not strong enough for 2H (most 2/1 players would agree), it is better to bid 1NT than 1S. The reason is that partner might raise 1S to 2S with 3-card support thereby putting you in a ridiculous contract. Even if you play that a raise to 2S "promises" 4-card support (unplayable in my view), bidding 1S on a hand like this will not exactly help partner to evaluate his hand.

 

2) A hand with a 4 spades and a long, strong minor. For example:

 

xxxx

x

x

AJ10xxxx

 

Most likely you belong in a low-level club contract. Good luck getting there after you respond 1S.

 

Something else you should know: many (most? all?) serious 2/1 players use the sequence 1H-1NT-3NT to suggest something like 6322 with strong hearts and close to a 2NT opening in terms of high cards. If you play that way and if responder bids 4H next, he is not "showing" anything in particular - he is simply opting for 4H rather than 3NT (and he could easily have a doubleton heart). When the bidding goes this way you are supposed to pass without looking at your hand.

 

Even without this "normal" agreement regarding the 3NT rebid, I agree with the majority that 2S is the correct rebid with this hand.

 

Suggestion for advanced players: use transfers after 1H-1NT-2S

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

I agree 99% with this, with one caveat. Some of us open 2NT with those 6332 hands on occasion. :P

[Wackojack]

I am in the mood to back down. Yes I see why I should have rebid 2♠. However, the bit of my rant that still stands is to hate the use of a 1NT response to include among the the things a "piece of crap raise". Thanks Helene for the translation from Rexfordian into English.