wylicoyote Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 :rolleyes: I know some TD's allow psychic bids..I allow them myself. However, I make one dinstinction, I require them to be alerted. My thinking on this is psychic bids are artificial bids. An artificial bid is one that is not natural for example: 2c strong is not natural and not a bid in clubs and is required to be alerted. Thus a psychic bid is not really a bid in suit, and artificial, so I require it to be alerted as such.. I know it kills the whole purpose of psychic bidding, but it seems to me this is correct thinking in interest of fair play. Do not know if this thinking is correct, but I do know the one thing any tournament requires is that all opponents has the right to know what is being bid..it is basic bridge. I would love to know what other Td's think on this subject.THANK YOU SPWDO AND PLEASE EVERYBODY PLEASE LOOK AT HELIUMS POST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Well, this is the wackiest I idea I think I have seen in a while.... In my opinion,and it is just mine, you can block the psyches of artifiical bids (make them illegal) or you can allow them, but to allow psyches but force them to allert them as psyches is bridge in wonderland... ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylicoyote Posted March 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Thank you Ben. Just trying to figure how to handle it.. It helps to get other people help.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 "I know some TD's allow psychic bids..I allow them myself. However, I make one dinstinction, I require them to be alerted." At the risk of being rude, can I ask you where you bought whatever substance you are smoking? I would certainly like to buy some myself. Just two points:a) Psychic bids are specifically allowed under the laws of contract bridge. So if any TD bans them, the game they are directing is NOT bridge. :rolleyes: (I was trying to think of a pertinent point b, but your idea is so off the planet that for once even the Hog is speechless.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Oh.. .I forgot to add a welcome, since that was your first post... and I should have been a little tamer saying the same thing given that. Here is a problem with alertable psyches... first if you alert, they are no longer psyches (well on BBO not to your opponents of course). Less imagine you have a weak two Diamond hand but you play multi 2D and your partner pass as does the next hand.... What to do? Why pyche or course, oh alert your opponents, but you expect teh 'automatic" 2!D by partner which you will then pass. What do you know, you can play multi 2D, strong 2C and weak 2D all on the same hand... This is only one of many problems one could create with such a rule. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrike Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Excellent idea! Very much in the spirit of fair play -- damn the Laws and full speed ahead! While you are at it, you should also require that in competitive auctions, any player not expecting to make what he bids must alert that fact. And before the opening lead, all players must identify all potentially finessable honors they may have. All in the spirit of fair play, you know. The first description posted about your method, "wacky," was kind. You'll hear more, and you'll deserve all of them. The game you are defining is not bridge. It is like having a poker game and banning not only check-raising (as some parlor players do) but bluffing as well. No tournament anywhere requires, as you say, that all opponents have the right to know what is being bid. They require disclosure of agreements, not hand contents. "Basic bridge" is drawing inferrences, not being told what cards lie where. "Just trying to figure out how to handle it"? Allow it. Psychs are legal. The laws say so. There is no sensible, reasonable, or legal basis for requiring them to be alerted. If someone complains that a psych has been fielded to his detriment, investigate to see whether you believe there was a concealed agreement, and if appropriate you can adjust on that basis (but only if the psyching side seems to have used an agreement that they didn't tell their opponents about). If someone complains that he was damaged because his opponent confused him, reassure him that that is part of the game, congratulate the opponent, and move to the next table. That's basic bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrike Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Sorry, I (as had Inquiry) had also missed the poster's experience. Wyli, it's good that you asked the question; a lot of players will get excited about this subject because it's so often misunderstood. It is a very creative idea you have had. It happens to be illegal, and a bad idea, but it is always worth thinking about ways to make your game fairer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 :rolleyes: I know some TD's allow psychic bids..I allow them myself. However, I make one dinstinction, I require them to be alerted. My thinking on this is psychic bids are artificial bids. An artificial bid is one that is not natural for example: 2c strong is not natural and not a bid in clubs and is required to be alerted. Thus a psychic bid is not really a bid in suit, and artificial, so I require it to be alerted as such.. I know it kills the whole purpose of psychic bidding, but it seems to me this is correct thinking in interest of fair play. Do not know if this thinking is correct, but I do know the one thing any tournament requires is that all opponents has the right to know what is being bid..it is basic bridge. I would love to know what other Td's think on this subject. I think that this is a GREAT idea and I would LOVE to play with this set of rules. Any time that I get a strong hand balanced hand, I'm going to psyche, ALERT it to the opponents, and goad them into playing doubled 3 level contracts. Case in point: White on red, I get dealt AKxKT98KT63QJTx I'll open 2N, ALERT this as a psyche, and then take the opps to the cleaner.PLEASE, OH PLEASE, can we play this way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrike Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Re hrothgar's meta-psych idea, I assume that the spirit of the psych self-alert would require the psycher to alert not only that he was psyching, but the nature of the misdescription. On a serious note, observe that imposition of this sort of rule would in effect codify the punishment of convention disruption, as it is impossible in practice to know whether a misbid was intentional. All failures to bid in accordance with one's system and one's hand would need to be alerted; as players would not alert their own unintentional misbids (assuming the didn't notice), they would be the source of possible adjustment. I wonder how Bobby Wolfe would feel about this idea? I actually recall, vaguely, that he favors legislating against psychs (as well as convention disruption, of course). So I suppose wyli has interesting company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 As a 'frequent' psycher myself, I think it's an insane idea. First of all, you should know the purpose of an alert. It's used to get opps attention that our pair knows something they might not know. Simple example, you open 1♣ with 15+HCP any hand, you alert (partner knows this already). In other words, we make sure the entire table knows what we have. So if you start alerting psychic bids and explain them as such, we only give opps the advantage, and partner still doesn't know what's going on. Fair you tell me? I don't think so! Second, psyching is NOT a conventional or artificial bid. It's a bid which deliberatly describes your hand completely different than it is. Say you overcall in 3rd hand 1NT with xxx-x-Axxxxx-xxx after a 1♣ opening. Really awsome hand to do that btw, but what will partner usually do? Considering it like a normal 1NT opening, so not as an artificial bid! It's not conventional as well, because partner again won't treat it as such. Third, the only thing this 'rule' would do is protecting players from psychic bids. It seems like you had some bad experience with them, and you want to protect yourself against them with this idea. The only thing that happens when this idea would be used, is that a psycher will ALWAYS get the bottoms. Now, if you psych, you take a chance yourself: it can go extremely wrong (you can find some posts on this forum with downscores like hell), it can go normal and it can go extremely good. If you take all doubt away, what purpose does a psychic bid have left? Nothing! Say the bidding goes 1♥-Dbl-1♠-... and you have to alert 1♠ as psychic, why would you EVER do that?? You just give away their 4♠ contract, and if you'd bid 4♥ they'll also just bid 4♠. Fourth, it's not because online bridge uses self-alerts, that you can do several new things with alert rules. Self-alerts are the only reasonable way to let opps know enough. The online bridge rules try to be like f2f bridge, so don't turn it around. As for The_Hog's first point ( :) ), I totally agree! If you can't use psychs the way they should be used, you're not playing bridge. It's like making a falsecard and telling to opps you did that. It's wacko :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Re hrothgar's meta-psych idea, I assume that the spirit of the psych self-alert would require the psycher to alert not only that he was psyching, but the nature of the misdescription. On a serious note, observe that imposition of this sort of rule would in effect codify the punishment of convention disruption, as it is impossible in practice to know whether a misbid was intentional. All failures to bid in accordance with one's system and one's hand would need to be alerted; as players would not alert their own unintentional misbids (assuming the didn't notice), they would be the source of possible adjustment. I wonder how Bobby Wolfe would feel about this idea? I actually recall, vaguely, that he favors legislating against psychs (as well as convention disruption, of course). So I suppose wyli has interesting company. OMG, you should even tell what type of hand you really have?!? So what else should we tell opps about our hand that partner doesn't know? Should we start showing point ranges like 0-5 or 4-5 or 'exactly' 4 HCP?? Should we say 4+♦, 5+♦ or 'exactly' 6♦?? Give me ANY example where a psych would be used (and explained the way you suggest) and it would be succesfull, PLEASE!!! Using this idea is even worse than banning psychs! If you'd psych when it's banned, you still get 40%... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylicoyote Posted April 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 ;) I think I have just been roasted.....hahaha.......... I guess I will have to change my thinking............ But I would like to here from people that has played in Off Line tourneys..especially....world class players..... But i stand Corrected and hurt....hahaha....not one support.. so, I will allow psychic bids in my tourney... but to one point...during my roasting by one will not mention name..he said..."Second, psyching is NOT a conventional or artificial bid. It's a bid which deliberatly describes your hand completely different than it is."to my point the last time I look up the definition of an artificial bid the definition was paraphrase to........."It's a bid which deliberatly describes your hand completely different than it is". such as 2c storng...hahahaha... Is there nobody out there to support...atleast understand ..........atleast think.....or just kind enough to say yeah I get it...even if you disagree...Help! HAHAHA... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 ........."It's a bid which deliberatly describes your hand completely different than it is". such as 2c storng...hahahaha... No this is not so. A conventional bid shows certain values, or distribution, or perhaps asks a question (Stayman or B'wood). A psychic bid mis states your holding eg 1H (X) 1S when you do not have 4S.I do understand where you are coming from, as some people do not understand psychic bids and think they are evil or something, so from a TD's point of view it is easier not to have hassles. However they are part of the laws of bridge, and they are used in top level competition - just have a look at some of Zia's antics. CheersRon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spwdo Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 hi no prob willy, one rule maybe usefull to you coud be allow spychisc(not alertable cause they miss their meaning then since a psychic must be used to set every body at the wrong foot) example ben(inquiry) p in recent tourney spycic with 3♥(he bid 1♥) ben and so did the rest of the table took it for a real bid and raise the ♥ to 2 since he had four of them. allowing pyschics but with this rule, make players inform u as td when they make a spychiv for several reasons, first u learn who bids them, second u learn the bids itself, 3 u are informed before u get the call from opps 4, then u have actaul grounds to stand up in case u want /need to adjust When is a spycic illegal, probaly main reason if when the bid is understsood by partner , so it became a convention, partner and u know more then opps. overall i think u fairly new at directing, no problem , keep trying /learning and remeber even the best at it(not talking about me for sure) make mistakes welcome to the forum , these guys are usually very nice lol, one suggestion, ask opnions /suggestions think most on here are very nice people that help u wherever they can if u ask for it,also use the search button , many things are answered already so a look around woud help u a lot, worked for me marcspwdo on bbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 ;) I think I have just been roasted.....hahaha.......... I guess I will have to change my thinking............ But I would like to here from people that has played in Off Line tourneys..especially....world class players..... But i stand Corrected and hurt....hahaha....not one support.. so, I will allow psychic bids in my tourney... but to one point...during my roasting by one will not mention name..he said..."Second, psyching is NOT a conventional or artificial bid. It's a bid which deliberatly describes your hand completely different than it is."to my point the last time I look up the definition of an artificial bid the definition was paraphrase to........."It's a bid which deliberatly describes your hand completely different than it is". such as 2c storng...hahahaha... Is there nobody out there to support...atleast understand ..........atleast think.....or just kind enough to say yeah I get it...even if you disagree...Help! HAHAHA... Ok, i didn't want to roast you, just point out that alerting psychics is not my way of thinking, and it would destroy several concepts of the game and it's rules :) I also know that my 'definition' of a psychic bid isn't correct, but I didn't want to waste my time looking it up... I think we all know what a psychic bid is, and what an artificial/conventional bid is, no? :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helium Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 :D I know some TD's allow psychic bids..I allow them myself. However, I make one dinstinction, I require them to be alerted. My thinking on this is psychic bids are artificial bids. An artificial bid is one that is not natural for example: 2c strong is not natural and not a bid in clubs and is required to be alerted. Thus a psychic bid is not really a bid in suit, and artificial, so I require it to be alerted as such.. I know it kills the whole purpose of psychic bidding, but it seems to me this is correct thinking in interest of fair play. Do not know if this thinking is correct, but I do know the one thing any tournament requires is that all opponents has the right to know what is being bid..it is basic bridge. I would love to know what other Td's think on this subject. this post sounded like a 1 of april joke to me:))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylicoyote Posted April 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 this post sounded like a 1 of april joke to me:))) The actual words you are lookong for is an April Fools Joke. Helium hahaha... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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