invitational continuations in precision

[rbforster]

At the nationals, I ran into a couple hands that pointed out potential areas for improvement in our partnership's bidding. Consider the following (precision) auction that proceeds to an invitational 2NT by responder -

 

1♥-1N     5+ major, ~9-15 pts; forcing

2♦-2N     3+ (usually 4+); natural invitiation

 

At this point, it seems likely that 3♦ needs to be a weak distributional hand (5/5+) trying to get out in a suit, and likewise 3♥ (perhaps on a weak 6-4). On the other hand, 3♣ doesn't have much of a natural meaning (unless you want to cater exactly to 0544's maximums), and there are opening hands that want to accept responder's invitation but still have not shown their 6 hearts (good 6-4's). These want to play in 4♥ opposite a doubleton or 3N otherwise. In this framework, it's not clear how to get to 4♥ except by bidding it, which leaves something to be desired when it's a 6-1 fit. Perhaps something like this would work better here:

 

1M-1♠ or 1N(f)

2m-2N

 

3♣ - artificial and min, scrambling. Asks for responder's preference between opener's suits (including pass). Usually a distributional hand with 5/5+.

   P  - prefers ♣ to M if clubs bid

   3♦ - prefers ♦ to M if diamonds bid; if not, 5+♦s natural and equal or better pref for M over clubs (catering to (50)44 which bid 2♣, and 1534 after 1♥-1N).

   3♥ - 5+♥s, equal or better pref for spades over minor (caters to 53(50)).

   3M - preference to M over minor, and no cheaper suit to bid naturally

3♦ - artificial and max, forcing. Asks responder to show any additional major length as cheaply as possible. Opener holds either 6M or 2OM or both.

   3M - doubleton support for opener's major

   3OM - 6 card suit that was unwilling to jump to 3OM to invite (checking for a doubleton with opener's (62)(41).

3M - min with extra length (6+), signoff

3OM - max with 3 cards in OM (53)(41) typically (or rarely (63)(40)) catering to 5M by responder or offering a Moysian in place of 3N if responder's 4th suit stopper is questionable

 

Likewise, if the opener rebids his major,

 

1M-1♠ or 1N(f)

2M-2N

 

it's similarly unclear what bids of 3m are naturally, especially in the style where 6-4 hands bid their minor first (weak 7-4's?). Perhaps these minor bids could be better used conventionally, although maybe stopper showing would be more useful than checking for support for opener's major (since with a good hand and a 7 card major, opener would have jumped to 3M). Then again, there are some seriously off-shape hands that need to rebid 2N on that sequence (like 5-5 minors with no OM stop or 5OM/5+m with no om stop), so I suppose one could try to cater to these somehow.

 

Does anyone else play special methods in these types of situations?

[cherdano]

Fred suggests some methods in his "Improving 2/1 GF" articles (easily googable).

I don't think playing precision or not makes any difference.

[awm]

I thought it was fairly standard to use three of a new minor in this sequence as a forcing checkback, and three of a previously bid suit as NF.

[jtfanclub]

Um, no?

 

After 1♥-1NT; 2♦-2NT

 

the main purpose of a 3-black bid seems to me to be to allow the opponents to figure out which suit to lead in a 3NT, either from the meaing of the bid or from a double (or lack thereof). For that reason, I would have all of the black suit bids be GF and implying a suit contract. Something like:

 

Hand A: 6+ hearts, enough diamonds to bid diamonds before rebidding hearts.

Hand B: 5-5 in the red.

Hand C: 5 hearts, 3-4 diamonds.

 

Pass: Weak ( C )

3♣: Strong ( A )

3♦: Weak ( B )

3♥: Weak ( A )

3♠: Strong ( B )

3NT: Strong ( C )

 

I don't think you need anything more complicated than that.

[rbforster]

Here is a link to Fred's article on methods after 2N (1M-1N-2m-2N sequence). They seem pretty good, although they spend some space bidding hands that aren't possible in precision (like 5/5 maximums which would likely have jumped the previous round). They do let opener describe his 5422 shape (direct 3N) separately from both 5431's which seems useful.

 

After 1♥-1NT; 2♦-2NT

 

I don't think you need anything more complicated than that.

Maybe not after 1♥-1N, but after 1♠-1N or 1♥-1♠, you want to make sure you find the 3-5 fit in responder's major since he'll rebid 2N with (52)33 routinely.

[jtfanclub]

Maybe not after 1♥-1N, but after 1♠-1N or 1♥-1♠, you want to make sure you find the 3-5 fit in responder's major since he'll rebid 2N with (52)33 routinely.

Well, 1♥-1♠ just isn't the same auction, especially if 1NT here is a catchall so 2♦ shows a fairly specific hand.

 

After 1♠-1NT-2♦, I would bid 2♥ with 5 in Precision, if for no other reason than partner hasn't denied 6 spades the way I play it (if he has 4+ diamonds to go with it). 2♠ may be the best place to play.

 

I don't see a real advantage to bidding 2NT with 2533.

[jdonn]

I don't see a real advantage to bidding 2NT with 2533.

Avoiding a 5-1 heart fit?

[rbforster]

Edit: to clarify, I play 2/1 GF over our 1M precision openers.

 

After 1♠-1NT-2♦, I would bid 2♥ with 5 in Precision

If you play 2♥ as invitational with 5, that's fine but highly non-standard. Normally new suits at the 2 level are drop dead by responder after a forcing NT. 2N is the only non-fitting invitational call available in most forcing NT sequences unless responder has his own good 6+ suit to bid at the 3 level.

[jtfanclub]

After 1♠-1NT-2♦, I would bid 2♥ with 5 in Precision

If you play 2♥ as invitational with 5, that's fine but highly non-standard. Normally new suits at the 2 level are drop dead by responder after a forcing NT. 2N is the only non-fitting invitational call available in most forcing NT sequences unless responder has his own good 6+ suit to bid at the 3 level.

Huh. When I play 2/1, that's what I play.

 

But when I'm playing Precision, if I have a drop dead hand with no game interest, I just pass. I'm not saying I pass with 8 counts like CC Wei orginally recommended, but you're not going to find me bidding 1NT and then 2♥ with a 0 count either. Partner should feel safe bidding 2♠ or 3♥ in this sequence. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was invitational, but somewhere in the 6-9 hcp range most of the time. You know, invitational-only-with-fit strength. If I was strong enough to invite across a non-fit, I'd bid 2♥ the first time.

 

I was unaware this was non-standard. Is this a case where I'm going old-school again?

[awm]

If you play a 2/1 GF style (which is not part of the original Wei Precision, but many strong club pairs play this today) then there are several ranges. Assuming a fairly normal opening range of something like 11-15 (yes I know some strong club pairs open lighter):

 

13+ is game force

10-12 or so is invitational

7-9 or so is less than invitational, but you don't really want to pass the opening

0-6 is the range where maybe you would pass the opening bid, although you still might not want to with a very shapely hand (like KJTxxxx of hearts and out after a 1♠ opening)

 

Assuming 1♠-2♥ is game force, you need to find bids with the other hand types. You might have 1♠-3♥ available as something with 6+♥ (weak or invitational) if it's not used as a raise or strong jump shift. Otherwise you've got 1♠-1NT-2m-2♥ and 1♠-1NT-2m-3♥. The latter shouldn't really be bid on a five-card suit.

 

So you have to decide whether 1♠-1NT-2m-2♥ is:

 

(1) 10-12 and 5+♥

(2) 10-12 and 6+♥

(3) 7-9 and 5+♥

(4) 7-9 and 6+♥

(5) Something else

 

I suspect that the normal interpretation is basically (4), although sometimes you throw in hands with 5♥ and really awful misfit for opener's suit (i.e. 5-5 in the other two) or hands with less than 7 hcp where you couldn't stand to pass. This means you basically have to rebid 2NT with hand type (1).

[cherdano]

After 1♠-1NT-2♦, I would bid 2♥ with 5 in Precision

If you play 2♥ as invitational with 5, that's fine but highly non-standard. Normally new suits at the 2 level are drop dead by responder after a forcing NT. 2N is the only non-fitting invitational call available in most forcing NT sequences unless responder has his own good 6+ suit to bid at the 3 level.

Huh. When I play 2/1, that's what I play.

 

But when I'm playing Precision, if I have a drop dead hand with no game interest, I just pass. I'm not saying I pass with 8 counts like CC Wei orginally recommended, but you're not going to find me bidding 1NT and then 2♥ with a 0 count either. Partner should feel safe bidding 2♠ or 3♥ in this sequence. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was invitational, but somewhere in the 6-9 hcp range most of the time. You know, invitational-only-with-fit strength. If I was strong enough to invite across a non-fit, I'd bid 2♥ the first time.

 

I was unaware this was non-standard. Is this a case where I'm going old-school again?

If you had read the original post, you might have noticed that the poster is playing a forcing NT. This might have been a hint that he is playing 2/1 GF.

[jtfanclub]

If you had read the original post, you might have noticed that the poster is playing a forcing NT. This might have been a hint that he is playing 2/1 GF.

You mean the post that starts...

 

At the nationals, I ran into a couple hands that pointed out potential areas for improvement in our partnership's bidding. Consider the following (precision) auction

 

Also, please note the title of the thread is: Invitational continuations in precision

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Standard Precision plays a forcing 1NT but not 2/1.

[jtfanclub]

Assuming 1♠-2♥ is game force

I don't know why people are assuming that. It was never mentioned in the OP, and they're playing a 9-15 opener. That's a very difficult range to play with 2/1 GF, because it's so rare to have a GF across a 9 count, and the invitational bids get all mashed up.

 

If he is playing 2/1GF, then there are going to be 15 counts he'll be bidding 1NT with. I don't see how you could reserve a rebid of 2♥ for a rare hand like a drop dead 6-bagger when you have hands from 8-15 hcp and a 5 bagger in hearts that you're supposed to untangle. That sounds like a mess.

[cherdano]

Ok I didn't realize classical precision used a forcing NT and 2/1 as not game forcing. Among the pairs I know who play strong club, playing 2/1 GF over 1M is definitely a lot more popular.

[cwiggins]

Understanding that natural is not fashionable, you might try the following agreements.

 

From K-S (sequence C-5) which uses a forcing 1NT and "light" 1M openings, after 1M-1N; 2m-2N:

3m = 5-5 signoff

3M = 6-card suit GF (with weak 6-4, rebid 2M over 1NT)

3om = if clubs, semi-natural, not encourging. If diamonds, non-forcing game try 5431 with singleton in OM

3OM = if hearts, non-forcing game try. if spades, forcing, short in om, could be strong 5-5

4m = strong 5+/5+ with no interest (or no way to express an interest) in 3NT

 

 

Or you could follow the guidelines of "Precision in ACOL" so that over the 2NT rebid

3m= 5-5 signoff

3M = 6-card suit game force

3om or 3OM = Natural (so shortness in fourth suit) and forcing 1 round

 

These aren't perfect, but clear understandings of what the "natural" bids mean will help.