1N overcall?

[rogerclee]

When you pass at 2nd seat over one level suit opening and double later, you always have a trap pass hand. Is this treatment expert standard?

No, but in this case the opponents have not named another suit. It is impossible for someone to have a hand that cannot make a takeout double of 1♦ but suddenly wants to make a takeout balance over 1NT.

[jtfanclub]

I don't think you are even speaking English any more, nor do I understand why you are mad at me for being able to read. Anyway let me help.

 

So, my opp [holding the problem hand at the table] passed (over a prec diamond), then after [his chosen call of pass it continued] 1N p p [which] he doubled. [His] LHO XXed and his partner bid 2C. Do you pass this [if you are holding the problem hand in this situation]? If [your] LHO doubles do you run?

 

You will notice in the original post, "he" and "his" always referred to the same person (the subject of the story), and "LHO" always referred to the LHO of that same person. I believe that was done for the convenience of the reader. I hope that clears up any confusion.

Sorry, I'm not angry at you, jdonn. Just trying to figure this St. Ives thing out. I capitalized you because I meant the word "you", not you as in the reader. I suppose you would have been more correct, but most places I post don't have italics available.

 

 

So we're talking:

 

1♦ P 1NT P

-P- X XX 2♣

-P-

 

Well, it sort of clears it up. The switching between "you" and "your opponent" and "he/his" and back to "you/your" confused me. Thank you.

 

Well, this sure looks like partner thought you were trap passing, and now that it's been redoubled into game is using Scramble to get the hell out. So the question is, do we want to play in a possible 3-2 fit with the jack high, and do we want to play in it doubled?

 

Nope, must still be something there I'm missing. Because otherwise I already spent too much time on this thread.

[cherdano]

Why would partner ever bid a 3-card club suit here?

[jtfanclub]

Why would partner ever bid a 3-card club suit here?

Suppose your partner has a 0 count 3-4-3-3 distribution.

 

Should he pass the 1NT? I should think so.

Should he pass the 1NTX? I'd say of course. If they make it, it's 180. Whee. If they make 2, it's 380, oops but it could be -500 or worse if you run. And who knows? His partner did trap pass and X. Maybe we're the ones getting 500.

Should he pass the 1NTXX? Um, making 1 is now 760. Making 2 is 1160. Suddenly losing 200 or 500 doesn't look bad.

 

Now what should he bid? Should he bid 2♥? You can look at the actual hand to see what kind of fun that causes. Making a unilateral move to a 4 card suit doesn't look so good, does it? So what should he do?

 

I think it's obvious. He bids his lowest 3+ card suit as Scramble. I don't even know that there's a good second choice.

 

Well, what are the odds that partner has this sort of hand? I have 2 hearts, and neither opponent looked for a heart fit. So I'd say the odds are pretty good that partner has 4 hearts. Further, I have 17 hcp, and the opps have XX'd 1NT for business. If they had a good long major they'd have bid it, they don't have a running diamond suit, so either they have power or they have long running clubs. So either clubs are terrible or partner has next to nothing.

 

So partner could have a balanced nothing, or a club-heart nothing. Either way, I'd rather play it in diamonds. I like honors in my trump suit.

 

I think the precision part is confusing things here. Suppose the auction went:

 

1NT P -P X

-P- P XX P

-P-

 

where XX is defined as 'we got them, p'.

 

Wouldn't you use 2♣ as Scramble and not as a real suit?

[Finch]

Why would partner ever bid a 3-card club suit here?

Suppose your partner has a 0 count 3-4-3-3 distribution.

 

Should he pass the 1NT? I should think so.

Should he pass the 1NTX? I'd say of course. If they make it, it's 180. Whee. If they make 2, it's 380, oops but it could be -500 or worse if you run. And who knows? His partner did trap pass and X. Maybe we're the ones getting 500.

Should he pass the 1NTXX? Um, making 1 is now 760. Making 2 is 1160. Suddenly losing 200 or 500 doesn't look bad.

 

Now what should he bid? Should he bid 2♥? You can look at the actual hand to see what kind of fun that causes. Making a unilateral move to a 4 card suit doesn't look so good, does it? So what should he do?

 

I think it's obvious. He bids his lowest 3+ card suit as Scramble. I don't even know that there's a good second choice.

eh? If partner decides to pull 1NTxx on a 3433 he'll pull it to 2D, which is the suit we have shown length in. Most people don't make a 'penalty' pass on a strong balanced hand, they only do it on a good unbalanced hand with long diamonds. In this sequence we've effectively shown a good 2D overcall.

 

Anyway, partner knows we have shown a penalty double of diamonds and he's decided to run to 2C. It's none of my business.

[Guest Jlall]

I think my partner and I made a huge mistake here. We did not call the director after tank 2C, pull to 2D. We went -90 instead of +1100, and our teammates at the other table overcalled 1N and went -800.

[benlessard]

(1D)-----P-------(1Nt)-------P

(P)-------X

 

If 1D is precision i think the X should show 14+ with long D and 2D should show both majors. Not sure about this but i find it easier to make a light take-out double after 1D than to make a reopening X after 1D----1Nt.

[jtfanclub]

Anyway, partner knows we have shown a penalty double of diamonds and he's decided to run to 2C. It's none of my business.

Ah, more confusion. I play as if the 1♦ was completely artificial here, so X doesn't indicate a suit. Assuming they play the 1♦ as 2+.

 

I just play the 2nd round X as medium balanced- 14 or so, and an immediate 2♦ as natural. I've never tried a penalty pass of an artificial 1♦. Kind of a strange concept.