Ruling from Vegas

[jdonn]

Wayne aren't you ignoring that even if North notices his partner bid out of turn, it's no longer north's turn to act so 1NT is still UI? The fact he is the dealer is irrelevant, the auction has already begun.

I am not sure about this. What makes you think that another player doing something incorrectly makes it not your turn?

A player doing something incorrectly doesn't automatically change your turn. A player bidding makes it the next player's turn, whether the bid was "correct" or not.

[nige1]

IMO the director should revert the result to 1♦+5. Although if 5♦+1 is a zero then justice could be said to be done by specifying that the result stands for both sides and imposing separate penalties on South for the deliberate use of unauthorised information, and North for coaching and belligerence. IMO disqualification is the least penalty appropriate for North.

 

Suppose, however, in a different universe, that

• North had not rabbited on and
  
• South had ethically passed or settled for a ♦ partscore and
  
• it transpired that NS could make no game.
  

In those different circumstances, how should you rule ? IMO, the director would then have to rule "rub of the green" and EW would have to live with the damage.

[Cascade]

Wayne aren't you ignoring that even if North notices his partner bid out of turn, it's no longer north's turn to act so 1NT is still UI? The fact he is the dealer is irrelevant, the auction has already begun.

I am not sure about this. What makes you think that another player doing something incorrectly makes it not your turn?

A player doing something incorrectly doesn't automatically change your turn. A player bidding makes it the next player's turn, whether the bid was "correct" or not.

I can't find this in the laws.

[jtfanclub]

A player doing something incorrectly doesn't automatically change your turn. A player bidding makes it the next player's turn, whether the bid was "correct" or not.

I can't find this in the laws.

Actually, it's a lot less clear than that. If it's my deal, and LHO opens out of turn, either me or my partner can now legally bid. If I bid, it's as if the opponent never called, and if my partner bid, then the call is accepted. Law 28 B and 29B.

 

Actually, that's interesting. If I read law 29B correctly, The 1♦ was canceled, the 1NT call was made, but the 1NT call was illegal. That would make Law 37 apply.

 

"A bid, double, or redouble by a player who is required by law to pass is canceled, and (penalty) the offender's partner must pass whenever it is his turn to call..."

 

So, South's call is canceled, North is barred by South's bid out of turn, and South is barred by North's action violating obligaiton to pass. So the result, assuming EW don't wish to bid, is a passout.

 

Which is interesting, because I thought that would be the 'right' result even though I wouldn't be able to defend it. But in fact, it is defensible.

[jdonn]

Wayne aren't you ignoring that even if North notices his partner bid out of turn, it's no longer north's turn to act so 1NT is still UI? The fact he is the dealer is irrelevant, the auction has already begun.

I am not sure about this. What makes you think that another player doing something incorrectly makes it not your turn?

A player doing something incorrectly doesn't automatically change your turn. A player bidding makes it the next player's turn, whether the bid was "correct" or not.

I can't find this in the laws.

It seems patently obvious. Are you sure it doesn't mention in the laws that bids travel around the table clockwise? I'm also sure it says the dealer bids first, but once someone else has illegally bid first I would be willing to bet it doesn't say the dealer bids next!

[Cascade]

A player doing something incorrectly doesn't automatically change your turn. A player bidding makes it the next player's turn, whether the bid was "correct" or not.

I can't find this in the laws.

Actually, it's a lot less clear than that. If it's my deal, and LHO opens out of turn, either me or my partner can now legally bid. If I bid, it's as if the opponent never called, and if my partner bid, then the call is accepted. Law 28 B and 29B.

 

Actually, that's interesting. If I read law 29B correctly, The 1♦ was canceled, the 1NT call was made, but the 1NT call was illegal. That would make Law 37 apply.

 

"A bid, double, or redouble by a player who is required by law to pass is canceled, and (penalty) the offender's partner must pass whenever it is his turn to call..."

 

So, South's call is canceled, North is barred by South's bid out of turn, and South is barred by North's action violating obligaiton to pass. So the result, assuming EW don't wish to bid, is a passout.

 

Which is interesting, because I thought that would be the 'right' result even though I wouldn't be able to defend it. But in fact, it is defensible.

I don't think this is right.

 

North is not barred until the director makes a ruling.

 

If north bids before a ruling has been made then I am inclined to think that he is just bidding at his proper turn.

 

He has no obligation to draw attention to south's irregularity and possibly might not have even noticed it.

[Cascade]

Wayne aren't you ignoring that even if North notices his partner bid out of turn, it's no longer north's turn to act so 1NT is still UI? The fact he is the dealer is irrelevant, the auction has already begun.

I am not sure about this. What makes you think that another player doing something incorrectly makes it not your turn?

A player doing something incorrectly doesn't automatically change your turn. A player bidding makes it the next player's turn, whether the bid was "correct" or not.

I can't find this in the laws.

It seems patently obvious. Are you sure it doesn't mention in the laws that bids travel around the table clockwise? I'm also sure it says the dealer bids first, but once someone else has illegally bid first I would be willing to bet it doesn't say the dealer bids next!

South bidding out of turn does not automatically make it West's turn to bid. In particular West has the option of not accepting the bid out of turn. This option however cannot be exercised until attention has been drawn to the irregularity and the director has come and made a ruling.

 

Until attention has been drawn to the irregularity it is still north's turn to bid. The law is silent on the consequences of any "normal" action that occurs after an irregularity but before attention has been drawn to it.

 

This is what the law says with regard to the progression of the auction:

 

"B. The First Call

The player designated by the board as dealer makes the first call.

C. Successive Calls

The player to dealer’s left makes the second call, and thereafter each

player calls in turn in a clockwise rotation."

 

This seems to say clearly that even after south has bid out of turn that east (to the left of dealer) bids second.

[jtfanclub]

I don't think this is right.

 

North is not barred until the director makes a ruling.

The rules say:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

LAW 29 PROCEDURE AFTER A CALL OUT OF ROTATION

A. Forfeiture of Right to Penalize

Following a call out of rotation, offender's LHO may elect to call, thereby forfeiting the right to penalize.

 

B. Out-of-Rotation Call Canceled

Otherwise, a call out of rotation is canceled (but see A preceding), and the auction reverts to the player whose turn it was to call. Offender may make any legal call in proper rotation, but his side may be subject to penalty under Law 30, Law 31 or Law 32.

 

and

 

LAW 31 BID OUT OF ROTATION

When a player has bid out of rotation (and the bid is canceled, as the option to accept the bid has not been exercised - see Law 29):

 

A. RHO's Turn

When the offender has bid (or has passed partner's call when it is a convention, in which case section A2(B) applies) at his RHO's turn to call, then:

 

1. RHO Passes

If that opponent passes, offender must repeat the call out of rotation, and when that call is legal there is no penalty.

 

2. RHO Acts

If that opponent makes a legal bid, double or redouble, offender may make any legal call; when this call

 

(a) Repeats Denomination

repeats the denomination of his bid out of rotation, (penalty) offender's partner must pass when next it is his turn to call (see Law 23).

 

(B) Does Not Repeat Denomination

does not repeat the denomination of his bid out of rotation, the lead penalties of Law 26 may apply, and (penalty) offender's partner must pass whenever it is his turn to call (see Law 23).

 

B. Partner's or LHO's Turn

When the offender has bid at his partner's turn to call, or at his LHO's turn to call if the offender has not previously called , (penalty) offender's partner must pass whenever it is his turn to call (see Law 23 when the pass damages the non-offending side), and the lead penalties of Law 26 may apply.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't see anything in there about a director. I see that the bid is canceled because the West did not elect to call. I see that bidding reverts to North, but he must pass whenever it is his turn to call. And then, of course, rule 37 applies for bidding when you were required to pass.

 

Where does it say anything about 'director must make a ruling before these rules apply'?

 

And the question of whether he drew attention or whether he even noticed is specious. There is nothing mentioning drawing attention or noticing...most of the rules in fact assume that violations were accidental. How is North's not noticing South's bid out of turn any different than South not noticing that North was the dealer? Not noticing is not an excuse. As for drawing attention, North could have simply passed to not draw attention. You can't break the rules with the excuse of 'well, I did it to not draw attention' either.

[jkdood]

Well this is seriously off topic, but maybe timely:

 

I am glad it is not just me that posts

(a) Point 1

( Bee ) Point 2

 

and the Bee in parens shows up as a smiley.

Very annoying, I suppose it would be nice if the forum had a built-in edit just like some do for unacceptable 4-letter words and such.

 

Anyway, what is the trick (if any) to make ( bee ) come out as desired?

[glen]

Anyway, what is the trick (if any) to make ( bee ) come out as desired?

a.) I find this very annoying as well B)

b.) It forces the use of a period

[jillybean]

a.)

b.)

c.)

 

a )

b )

c )

 

a B)

b B)

c B)

[jkdood]

Testing

 

paren + b + paren: (B)

paren + space + b + paren: ( b )

b + paren: B)

B + space + paren: b )

[Gerardo]

1. a
   
2. b
   
3. c
   

[LIST=a]
[*] a
[*] b
[*] c
[/LIST]

[nige1]

Thank you, Gerardo. It seems that ...

[LIST=a][*] Cat.[*] Dog.[*] Car.[*] Radio.[/LIST]
[LIST=1][*] Cat.[*] Dog.[*] Car.[*] Radio.[/LIST]
[LIST=A][*] Cat.[*] Dog.[*] Car.[*] Radio.[/LIST]
[LIST=I][*] Cat.[*] Dog.[*] Car.[*] Radio.[/LIST]
[LIST=i][*] Cat.[*] Dog.[*] Car.[*] Radio.[/LIST]

... produces ...

1. Cat.
   
2. Dog.
   
3. Car.
   
4. Radio.
   

1. Cat.
   
2. Dog.
   
3. Car.
   
4. Radio.
   

1. Cat.
   
2. Dog.
   
3. Car.
   
4. Radio.
   

1. Cat.
   
2. Dog.
   
3. Car.
   
4. Radio.
   

1. Cat.
   
2. Dog.
   
3. Car.
   
4. Radio.
   

... just like in HTML.

Incidentally, in the UK, which of the 4 (Cat, Dog, Car, Radio) is the odd one out

• Before 1971?
  
• After 1987?
  

[LH2650]

If north bids before a ruling has been made then I am inclined to think that he is just bidding at his proper turn.

 

Once there has been a call out of rotation, one must follow Law 29 - Procedure After a Call Out of Rotation. It is as simple as that.

 

He has no obligation to draw attention to south's irregularity and possibly might not have even noticed it.

 

True. West may make a call, thereby forfeiting the right to penalize. North has every right to wait and hope for that, but any call by North constitutes another irregularity.

[TimG]

Anyway, what is the trick (if any) to make ( bee ) come out as desired?

In your profile set:

 

Do you wish to view images in posts, such as smilies and posted images?

 

to "no".

[mycroft]

or to stop everyone else from seeing it, turn off "enable Stupid Idiotic Graphic Blots on the Face of the Internets" from your posting.

 

Er, sorry, did I say that? I meant Smilies/emoticons. :) b)

[jkdood]

First test:

a) I went to my profile

B) I changed the images setting to NO

[jkdood]

Ha ha seems that a) works BUT B) auto-changes it to a capital

(test2)

[jkdood]

OK now a) using b) mycrofts solution

(test3)

[jkdood]

Ok Thanks mycroft and others

FINAL POST (by me) on this nonsense (Sorry folks)

 

The first solution - changing my profile, only affected what I saw, the smiley went away and the " b" showed but it was a Capital B

 

This means other readers without changing THEIR profile settings, still see the annoying smiley, which adversely impacts readability (or enjoyability in some cases)

 

(I changed my setting back to YES, the default (most will have) and the smiley Came Back)

 

The second soution seems best, for obvious reasons. Thanks.

[Cascade]

I don't think this is right.

 

North is not barred until the director makes a ruling.

The rules say:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

LAW 29 PROCEDURE AFTER A CALL OUT OF ROTATION

A. Forfeiture of Right to Penalize

Following a call out of rotation, offender's LHO may elect to call, thereby forfeiting the right to penalize.

 

B. Out-of-Rotation Call Canceled

Otherwise, a call out of rotation is canceled (but see A preceding), and the auction reverts to the player whose turn it was to call. Offender may make any legal call in proper rotation, but his side may be subject to penalty under Law 30, Law 31 or Law 32.

 

and

 

LAW 31 BID OUT OF ROTATION

When a player has bid out of rotation (and the bid is canceled, as the option to accept the bid has not been exercised - see Law 29):

 

A. RHO's Turn

When the offender has bid (or has passed partner's call when it is a convention, in which case section A2(B) applies) at his RHO's turn to call, then:

 

1. RHO Passes

If that opponent passes, offender must repeat the call out of rotation, and when that call is legal there is no penalty.

 

2. RHO Acts

If that opponent makes a legal bid, double or redouble, offender may make any legal call; when this call

 

(a) Repeats Denomination

repeats the denomination of his bid out of rotation, (penalty) offender's partner must pass when next it is his turn to call (see Law 23).

 

(B) Does Not Repeat Denomination

does not repeat the denomination of his bid out of rotation, the lead penalties of Law 26 may apply, and (penalty) offender's partner must pass whenever it is his turn to call (see Law 23).

 

B. Partner's or LHO's Turn

When the offender has bid at his partner's turn to call, or at his LHO's turn to call if the offender has not previously called , (penalty) offender's partner must pass whenever it is his turn to call (see Law 23 when the pass damages the non-offending side), and the lead penalties of Law 26 may apply.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't see anything in there about a director. I see that the bid is canceled because the West did not elect to call. I see that bidding reverts to North, but he must pass whenever it is his turn to call. And then, of course, rule 37 applies for bidding when you were required to pass.

 

Where does it say anything about 'director must make a ruling before these rules apply'?

 

And the question of whether he drew attention or whether he even noticed is specious. There is nothing mentioning drawing attention or noticing...most of the rules in fact assume that violations were accidental. How is North's not noticing South's bid out of turn any different than South not noticing that North was the dealer? Not noticing is not an excuse. As for drawing attention, North could have simply passed to not draw attention. You can't break the rules with the excuse of 'well, I did it to not draw attention' either.

The director bit comes in Law 9 which details how to deal with an irregularity.

 

B. After Attention Is Drawn to an Irregularity

 

1. (a) The Director should be summoned at once when attention is drawn to an irregularity.

 

(B) Any player, including dummy, may summon the Director after attention has been drawn to an irregularity.

 

© Summoning the Director does not cause a player to forfeit any rights to which he might otherwise be entitled.

 

(d) The fact that a player draws attention to an irregularity committed by his side does not affect the rights of the opponents.

 

2. No player shall take any action until the Director has explained all matters in regard to rectification.

 

This last point prohibits further action after attention has been drawn to an irregularity.

 

This would make a 1NT opening by north illegal if attention had been drawn to the bid out of turn. However when attention has not been drawn to the bid out of turn as stated in the opening post there is no constraint on taking further action.

 

Therefore it seems logical to me if no one has noticed the bid out of turn that north would be entitled to make his opening bid. I mean how come you stop someone bidding at his turn when no one has noticed that some irregularity has occurred.

[Cascade]

and further

 

LAW 10 - ASSESSMENT OF RECTIFICATION

 

A. Right to Determine Rectification

 

The Director alone has the right to determine rectifications when applicable. Players do not have the right to determine (or waive – see Law 81C5) rectifications on their own initiative.

 

The application is not automatic it is the director alone who determines the application of some other law.

 

As a player you have no right to rule law such and such applies and sort out the issue.

 

The procedure following an irregularity is:

 

1. The irregularity occurs

 

2. Someone (hopefully a player) draws attention to it

 

3. Someone (maybe but not necessarily the same person/player) calls the director

 

4. The director makes a ruling

 

Between 2 and 4 the laws prohibit further actions from any player.

 

There is no such prohibition between 1 and 2.

[jdonn]

Therefore it seems logical to me if no one has noticed the bid out of turn that north would be entitled to make his opening bid. I mean how come you stop someone bidding at his turn when no one has noticed that some irregularity has occurred.

This is still out of left field. Even if you can't stop him, that doesn't make it legal. In the same way you couldn't stop the opening bid out of turn even though that wasn't legal. I truly can't believe you still believe what you are saying here.

[Cascade]

If north bids before a ruling has been made then I am inclined to think that he is just bidding at his proper turn.

 

Once there has been a call out of rotation, one must follow Law 29 - Procedure After a Call Out of Rotation. It is as simple as that.

 

He has no obligation to draw attention to south's irregularity and possibly might not have even noticed it.

 

True. West may make a call, thereby forfeiting the right to penalize. North has every right to wait and hope for that, but any call by North constitutes another irregularity.

This is not correct.

 

We do not follow this procedure until after attention has been drawn to the irregularity.