TD Adding a Sub without permission

[AdOut]

Hi:

 

Often, I am willing to sub in a tourney. But, having been burnt many times, I've learnt to avoid folks who do not post a profile.

 

Of late, I've noticed many instances where some TD's add me directly to the tourney as a sub without giving me the opportunity to evaluate and then accept/decline.

 

This in an incorrect and unjustifiable practice, imho.

 

Will BBO be taking any corrective action to discourage/prevent TDs from engaging in this kind of behavior?

 

One of the TDs I brought this up with felt that his was a quickie tourney and he did not have time to wait for replies... I felt this was not an adequate reply.

 

Any comments?

[uday]

TDs have the option of using either of two approaches :

 

one invites and subs

one substitutes

 

IMO a TD should use the former unless he knows the sub will accept, in

which case the latter seems fine

[mr1303]

The trouble with the suggestion is that sometimes, a player may just have a poor connection (red dot) rather than fully disconnected. To have to message someone, and wait for a reply, then fill out the name in the subs bar takes far too long, if the director is busy. When the player has fully disconnected (red bar) then the invitational message is sent directly. In an ideal world, an invitation is sent both times, but I have heard objections to this, as this would allow a player to sub is partner just on poor play, rather than calling for a director.

 

I would be strongly against any suggestion to prevent the ability of a TD to put subs directly in. If they don't want to play with a random player, they have the choice not to go on the subs list.

 

Mark

[Gweny]

Concur with MR1303

 

Appologies to AdOut I do not think it is TDs intention to annoy any person who graciously agrees to sub. Without subs there is no tournaments.

 

I do manually subbing when player is unresponsive or red dot. I think my reasoning is if you in sub list you is willing to sub. We no much options on speaking to people in list and at this point software do invoke accept/decline thing.

 

Given pace we see in rounds 1 and 2 and amount of time who is pass when we is call to table speed is of essense since normally 3-5 min is pass with no response from red dot or unresponsive player.

[aisha759]

Hello AdOut;

As the previous 2 directors mentioned, there is very little time to inform sub, as to who their partners will be... i know of many TDs, who look at sub list and try to put a workable partnership together i.e. sub a polish system player with a pd who plays the same system, or at least same level.. it is not always possible though... as Gweny said, once you have agreed to substitute for a tourney, you have to accept the random partner... when we need subs, we are desperate, and thats why they are so valuable, otherwise the tourney would either slow down, or stop all together... if you have had too many bad experiences, I suggest you dont volunteer, until a better solution comes up :lol:)

Thanks for your help anyhoooooo :(

aisha

[inquiry]

I am confused... The title is about adding a sub without permission. Does this mean you are just sitting somewhere in the BBO and BANG, you are subb'ed into the tourney without warning. Ok this is wrong. But if you voluteered, you clicked the "Register as a substitute" button, what is the problem? When you are no longer willing to sub, remove your name. I think teh fact you clicked that button is de facto evidence to the directors that they have your premission.

 

Now, having said this, I volunteered to sub once, and bang, I got seated across the table from my number one online enemy. The one person I would not want to play with because he is the most obnoxious player in bridge, and at the time, the only person on my enemy list. I have no doubt why his partner abandoned the tournment.... L:-) So maybe some kind of control is needed here..

 

Ben

[AdOut]

Thanks all for the gracious replies. Let me clarify. I've subbed a great deal and most TD's invite and then add. Some, of late, have taken to adding directly.

 

Why is this a problem?

===============

After I log in and make myself available as a sub, I may not be invited to join as a sub for a looong while. I may begin playing at a table or may start a bridge lesson. Later, if I intend to join a tourney, I have to remember to make myself unavailable as a sub, at least approximately five minutes before that tourney begins. (It may take that long to get out of a tourney that I've been added into without accepting an invite). l Usually, I rely on my ability to refuse a sub invitation if it is too close to the new tourney start time. Alternately, I may get distracted and may forget to 'unsub' and in that case, if I am added on as a sub directly by a TD, then I might lose the opportunity to join in the tourney I was intending.

 

Of late, the new problem that has emerged is a greater incidence of absolute beginners playing in tourneys. They usually play with no profile (or in one case a 'world class' profile. The quality of play is such that their partner has fled after two boards of say, a 16 board event. Subbing with such a player is no fun and if the subbing takes place without an invite, it is even less so. This is an inherent risk in subbing and I am ok with that; however, if players are required to have a profile, this might diminish somewhat.

 

I keep seeing TDs repeat that subs are very valuable - if so, I hope they will now understand that the practice of adding subs directly makes subbing much less attractive to potential subs like me.

 

Suggestion to TDs:

1. Require every player who joins a tourney to have a profile (beginner, etc). Perhaps this can be a software option avail to TDs, if not already available.

2. Always invite and then add a sub UNLESS you specify in tourney description that your practice is to do otherwise. That way, I know which tourneys to avoid being a sub to. Otherwise, this practice implicitly penalizes the (majority) polite TDs who invite and then add subs, because I and others like me who agree to sub may start shunning all sub opportunities.

 

The idea that it takes too much time for TDs is certainly valid but it must be weighted against the cost that you may deter candidates from subbing, which apparently is an acute (?) problem.

 

Thanks for listening and responding. I must add that TDs do a terrific and thankless job and I am grateful to be able to participate in the tourneys they conduct. Fwiw, let me add that the tourneys I enjoy the most have TDs who tend to have shorter times per board and who finish rounds in the time period promised.

[aisha759]

Having read your explanation, AddOut, you have a few good points there... getting distracted though, and forgetting to unsub, is not very valid, even though i'm sure it happens to many players...it would a perfect world, if sub could get the invitation by being asked and informed as to his/her partner would be (level mostly.. and hoping that level in profile is correctly chosen... :D ) I don't think that's up to TD's to have all the options available, but up to software, not sure though..

Yes, subs are very valuable and should be handled with care in each way possible..

I have added myself to sub list many times, and had to sit waiting in lobby; couldnt even leave compi for too long, for fear of keeping others waiting.. and if i decide to join a table in the bridge club, i tell everyone at the table that i might get vacuumed into tournament as a sub.. so maybe thats an idea. If you are teaching, then i think best is to remember to unsub yourself..

 

:D)

Aisha

[Frosty]

We can't say enough good things about all the generous players who sign up to sub in our tournaments - without them, as Gweny said, our tournaments would not succeed.

 

That being said, I think the expectation you should have as a sub are equivalent to signing up for an Individual tournament. You need to be willing to take what you get for a partnership. If you were looking to filter that, then finding a partner and signing up for the tournament is the best option.

 

I too have been put in VERY awkward situations subbing, but its a temporary problem. Most who agree to sub are not that faint of heart, thankfully, and go with the flow.

 

Frosty

[spwdo]

hi,

 

 

 

i prefer always to make decent partnerships, i can imagine every novice to fill in as sub for a starpartner(so i try to avoid this), i try do this however not always possible(time).

 

further i send 95% invites(exception is the prevuios example), only very very rare that i manually type a players name as sub(my typing isnt that fast:))

 

and agree with what ben says, happend to me also and then the player refused to play with me and ask to be subbed, very disappointing action and not wuthry of a td(player in questions was/is TD)

[1eyedjack]

This thread has answered a problem that I noted in a different thread but it did not attract any interest:

 

Currently you can offer to sub in more than one tourney simultaneously. This maximises your chances of playing in one or other of several concurrent tourneys. But if you the get subbed into one of the tourneys your name is NOT removed from the sub-list of the other tourneys, and the player has no option then to remove himself from that list. If you subsequently get selected to sub into one of the other tourneys you get booted out of the one that you are already playing in. This needs addressing at a software level, I feel. All registrations to sub should be cancelled the instant that a player starts taking part in any tourney.

[spwdo]

This thread has answered a problem that I noted in a different thread but it did not attract any interest:

 

Currently you can offer to sub in more than one tourney simultaneously.  This maximises your chances of playing in one or other of several concurrent tourneys.  But if you the get subbed into one of the tourneys your name is NOT removed from the sub-list of the other tourneys, and the player has no option then to remove himself from that list.  If you subsequently get selected to sub into one of the other tourneys you get booted out of the one that you are already playing in.  This needs addressing at a software level, I feel.  All registrations to sub should be cancelled the instant that a player starts taking part in any tourney.

thats done already jack

 

 

once playing elsewhere i think u are removed from all other sublist, also when u sit down at a table in main bridgeclub im fairly convindeced

 

wasnt the problem of the topic, i think someone prefered only to play with"certain" partners and so add themselves as half sub so to say(subbing on thier condition)

 

 

 

but sometimes tds get in to prob and want to get the tourney going and then names are typed in without sending invites(names are names on the sublist) and we tds feel that subbing is a good daed and not a way to play a couple of baords with an expert player of whome we even more oftenly hear that they are no experts after a couple og baords:)

 

 

hope i clarified some here

[1eyedjack]

This thread has answered a problem that I noted in a different thread but it did not attract any interest:

 

Currently you can offer to sub in more than one tourney simultaneously.  This maximises your chances of playing in one or other of several concurrent tourneys.  But if you the get subbed into one of the tourneys your name is NOT removed from the sub-list of the other tourneys, and the player has no option then to remove himself from that list.  If you subsequently get selected to sub into one of the other tourneys you get booted out of the one that you are already playing in.  This needs addressing at a software level, I feel.  All registrations to sub should be cancelled the instant that a player starts taking part in any tourney.

thats done already jack

 

 

once playing elsewhere i think u are removed from all other sublist, also when u sit down at a table in main bridgeclub im fairly convindeced

 

wasnt the problem of the topic, i think someone prefered only to play with"certain" partners and so add themselves as half sub so to say(subbing on thier condition)

 

 

 

but sometimes tds get in to prob and want to get the tourney going and then names are typed in without sending invites(names are names on the sublist) and we tds feel that subbing is a good daed and not a way to play a couple of baords with an expert player of whome we even more oftenly hear that they are no experts after a couple og baords:)

 

 

hope i clarified some here

Thanks for that, spwdo.

It must be a fairly recent improvement to the software, because it was only a few weeks ago that I registered as a sub in two tourneys, got subbed in to one and then got removed from one tourney to the other.

[mpefritz]

Maybe the software could tag someone as a sub-in-waiting and list what tournament, so that if she sits at a table in main bridge club, all other players know. Yes, the person should announce this also. Being marked with a scarlett S would also remind that person that they are a sub-to-be.

 

Yes, it would also be pleasant to see how many boards you are subbing for and with whom, but that certainly is not a necessity, but a nicety. I occasionally sub knowing that I may play with a clown (or my future partner may have the same opinion), but more importantly I feel I am helping BBO, the TDs and other players in the tourney.

 

fritz

[newmoon]

I occasionally sub knowing that I may play with a clown (or my future partner may have the same opinion), but more importantly I feel I am helping BBO, the TDs and other players in the tourney.

We'd love more subs with that attitude!

 

;)

 

Newmoon

[1eyedjack]

This thread has answered a problem that I noted in a different thread but it did not attract any interest:

 

Currently you can offer to sub in more than one tourney simultaneously.  This maximises your chances of playing in one or other of several concurrent tourneys.  But if you the get subbed into one of the tourneys your name is NOT removed from the sub-list of the other tourneys, and the player has no option then to remove himself from that list.  If you subsequently get selected to sub into one of the other tourneys you get booted out of the one that you are already playing in.  This needs addressing at a software level, I feel.  All registrations to sub should be cancelled the instant that a player starts taking part in any tourney.

thats done already jack

 

 

once playing elsewhere i think u are removed from all other sublist, also when u sit down at a table in main bridgeclub im fairly convindeced

 

wasnt the problem of the topic, i think someone prefered only to play with"certain" partners and so add themselves as half sub so to say(subbing on thier condition)

 

 

 

but sometimes tds get in to prob and want to get the tourney going and then names are typed in without sending invites(names are names on the sublist) and we tds feel that subbing is a good daed and not a way to play a couple of baords with an expert player of whome we even more oftenly hear that they are no experts after a couple og baords:)

 

 

hope i clarified some here

I have to question the accuracy of this statement, having just tested it.

I just added myself as sub to several concurrent tourneys.

I was subbed into one.

The tourney completed.

I was then subbed into another, without re-registering myself as a sub.

 

This is slightly different from my earlier experience, when I was booted from one tourney into another prior to the termination of the first. Indeed if the software is intelligent enough to remove my name temporarily from sub-lists whilst actively playing in a tourney then I take my hat off to the programmers. However it could just be coincidence that I was not on this occasion subbed in from one tourney to the other prior to the cessation of the former.