Who missed the boat?

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=s974ht2da5cakq543&s=saha853dkqt87cj97]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♣    Pass  1♦

 Pass  2♣    Pass  2♥

 Pass  3♣    Pass  5♣

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[the hog]

Clearly South. If you are just going to bid 5C, why not bid a 4S splinter over 3C.

 

Personally I would bid 4C, which I play as forcing here. Now 4D by North and you have an easy grand to bid.

[1eyedjack]

Why not splinter 3S over 2C? You are not going to have a Heart fit now. Or, if partner does rebid 2C with a concealed 4 card Heart suit, you don't want to play this hand in Hearts.

 

Agree South to blame by the way.

 

Agree also that 4C should be forcing (instead of 5C) on the auction as it went.

[skjaeran]

I don't fancy a 3♠ splinter from south. That would make partner devalue Kxx of KQx. The bidding was fine until south jumped to 5♣, which was a bad bid. Much better make a forcing raise to 4♣, and initiate a cuebidding sequence.

 

After 4♦ from north (showing a top honour for me), bidding the slam is easy.

[1eyedjack]

I don't fancy a 3♠ splinter from south. That would make partner devalue Kxx of KQx.

Don't entirely understand that comment. Devaluing Spade values seems reasonable to me. Despite your Ace of Spades, you would rather that partner's Spade values were elsewhere.

[kenrexford]

Bidding sequences often go South (pun not intended but appropriate here) when someone jumps to game, as if the game is a timed game.

[skjaeran]

I don't fancy a 3♠ splinter from south. That would make partner devalue Kxx of KQx.

Don't entirely understand that comment. Devaluing Spade values seems reasonable to me. Despite your Ace of Spades, you would rather that partner's Spade values were elsewhere.

Well, yes and no. :blink:

 

Give partner Kxx xx Ax AQTxxx, and it's still an excellent slam.

But I strongly doubt you'll reach it after a spade splinter.

[mikeh]

I don't fancy a 3♠ splinter from south. That would make partner devalue Kxx of KQx. The bidding was fine until south jumped to 5♣, which was a bad bid. Much better make a forcing raise to 4♣, and initiate a cuebidding sequence.

 

After 4♦ from north (showing a top honour for me), bidding the slam is easy.

agree 100%... especially the part about the meaning of 4♦... when partner shows a long suit and then supports ours, an immediate cue of partner's suit should always show a high honour, since this is a card that will often allow partner to count tricks, which is an essential element of slam and, especially, grand slam bidding. AQ10xxx really grows up when partner promises the King, but may be of dubious value if partner's cue could be either a stiff or the K.

[1eyedjack]

I don't fancy a 3♠ splinter from south. That would make partner devalue Kxx of KQx.

Don't entirely understand that comment. Devaluing Spade values seems reasonable to me. Despite your Ace of Spades, you would rather that partner's Spade values were elsewhere.

Well, yes and no. :P

 

Give partner Kxx xx Ax AQTxxx, and it's still an excellent slam.

But I strongly doubt you'll reach it after a spade splinter.

How much worse a slam is it if partner has xxx, xx, Ax, AQTxxx (than if he has your suggested Kxx, xx, Ax, AQTxxx)? (my suggestion is fractionally, but not significantly). On the other hand, if he has xxx, Kx, Ax, AQTxxx the slam is significantly better. On your suggested layout, a Heart lead puts the contract at some risk. It is still a good slam, I agree, but not AS good.

 

Basically, after the 3S splinter, with Spade wastage, partner bids 3N. But you are still pulling this to 4C anyway, and then if partner bids 4D you are home and dry.

[kenrexford]

I like the idea of the spade splinter. Spade values are wasted, in large part. If partner has some hand like KQ in spades, heart King, and A-Q of clubs, the contract is in jeopardy and partner has real argument for a 1♣...3♣ auction.

 

That said, the same arguments against leaping to 5♣ over 3♣ would be a fair rebuttal to Opener's duty after 3♠. If he has KQx in spades, he sure should bid 3NT, and this does not end the auction. Responder can visualize spade values and act accordingly. Opener, after having shown wasted spade values, should cooperate.

 

Take Skaeran's ♠KQx ♥xx ♦Ax ♣AQxxxx. After opening 1♣, rebidding 2♣, Opener hears a 3♠ splinter. So, he bids 3NT. When Responder now bids 4♣, 4♦ seems obvious. Responder now kicks in RKCB (hopefully 4♥ for space reasons), and tada!

 

Reduce the spade holding to Kxx, and 5♣ still looks wrong with many holdings. There is a lot of bidding between 3♠ and 5♣. Just because Opener feels uninspired does not mean that he should elect to sign off.

[jtfanclub]

I know, I'm disagreeing with everybody else. Again.

 

South has 14 hcp. Partner's showing crap. While I absolutely agree that experts can and will find this slam, if I'm playing with an intermediate like <name witheld>, I'm just bidding 5♣. It's just not worth the grief when we screw up.

 

After 3 clubs, let's say South says 4 diamonds or 4 spades. Then North says 5 diamonds. Does North have the hand listed, or

 

Q5

T2

974

AKQ543

 

Best of luck making a slam across that.

 

I'm just not that excited by the question of "how do I bid a 27 hcp slam with only a 9 card fit" at the BIL level. Once it's clear that you don't have 30 hcp or a superfit, bid the freakin' game. So I claim it's nobody's fault.

 

P.S. If by some horrible twist of fate you were playing with me, please don't bid 4♦ over 3♣ when you're sitting South with this hand. You'd put me into a "what the hell" spiral for about 5 minutes while I tried to figure out what on God's green Earth you were trying to tell me.

[jillybean]

I like the idea of a ♠ splinter but will my partner? splintering with an Ace is far from standard. 4♣ is fine - as long as its not passed.

[1eyedjack]

I like the idea of a ♠ splinter but will my partner? splintering with an Ace is far from standard. 4♣ is fine - as long as its not passed.

I have a simple rule: If 4-minor bidder is unlimited then the 4m bid can never be passed. I don't know if that is standard, and there may be a rare occasion in which I regret it (but I haven't had that yet).

[gwnn]

I know, I'm disagreeing with everybody else.  Again.

 

South has 14 hcp.  Partner's showing crap.  While I absolutely agree that experts can and will find this slam, if I'm playing with an intermediate like <name witheld>, I'm just bidding 5♣.  It's just not worth the grief when we screw up.

 

After 3 clubs, let's say South says 4 diamonds or 4 spades.  Then North says 5 diamonds.  Does North have the hand listed, or

 

Q5

T2

974

AKQ543 

 

Best of luck making a slam across that. 

 

I'm just not that excited by the question of "how do I bid a 27 hcp slam with only a 9 card fit" at the BIL level.  Once it's clear that you don't have 30 hcp or a superfit, bid the freakin' game.  So I claim it's nobody's fault. 

 

P.S.  If by some horrible twist of fate you were playing with me, please don't bid 4♦ over 3♣ when you're sitting South with this hand.  You'd put me into a "what the hell" spiral for about 5 minutes while I tried to figure out what on God's green Earth you were trying to tell me.

what do you mean. Why would partner bid 5♦ on

 

Qx

xx

xxx

AKQxxx

 

,

 

and what do you mean by "oh no BIL's shouldnt bid 27 hcp slams". I'm sure Kathryn herself could count the combined hcp of N/S, and she asked how slam could be found. So you should answer the question and not assert something ridiculous like somebody with zero outside cards will force to slam opposite a slamtry, just because they're intermediate.

[mike777]

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: IMP ♠ 974 ♥ T2 ♦ A5 ♣ AKQ543 ♠ A ♥ A853 ♦ KQT87 ♣ J97  

 

West  North East  South

 

 -     1♣    Pass  1♦

 Pass  2♣    Pass  2♥

 Pass  3♣    Pass  5♣

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Assuming 2h was natural and game force I think South was afraid to bid 4c....slam try.....or 4d here over 3c was not rkc for clubs I assume.

[jillybean]

I like the idea of a ♠ splinter but will my partner? splintering with an Ace is far from standard.  4♣ is fine -  as long as its not passed.

I have a simple rule: If 4-minor bidder is unlimited then the 4m bid can never be passed. I don't know if that is standard, and there may be a rare occasion in which I regret it (but I haven't had that yet).

I asked my partner if 4♣ here would it be f or nf, he initialy said nf until I pointed out the reverse. When an auction starts 1x, 2x, 3x by opener its my experience that they are going to pass a raise of their suit.

 

Anyway, 5♣ was the bad bid here.

[jtfanclub]

what do you mean. Why would partner bid 5♦ on

 

Qx

xx

xxx

AKQxxx

 

Because one interpretation of 4♦ is Choice of Games between diamonds and hearts (6 diamonds, 5 hearts). One interpretation of 4♠ is a slam try in diamonds, not clubs. So 5♦ is in both cases the right bid. The auction implies long diamonds by responder and a good hand. Suddenly, we're not allowed to play in diamonds?

 

It's not that bidding 27 hcp slams is a horrible thing. It's that springing bids like this on your partner is just mean. Not only do most intermediates not have an agreement on an auction like this, they don't even have a meta agreement on when a jump is a Splinter or when what is obvious a cue is agreement for partner's suit vs. their own.

 

I mean, man, these are some seriously vicious bids. 1♣ 1♦ 2♣ 3♠? My first thought would be "screw you, I'm going home". It's one thing to have agreements on this stuff, that's great. And it's another thing to look at a hand like this and make agreements so that next time you'll do it right. That's great too. But to not have any agreements on this stuff and call 5♣ a bad bid because you know you don't have any agreements on this, that's, arrgh.

 

I'm sure Kathryn herself could count the combined hcp of N/S, and she asked how slam could be found.

 

She didn't ask how slam could be found. She asked who screwed up. That's the point.

 

So you should answer the question and not assert something ridiculous like somebody with zero outside cards will force to slam opposite a slamtry, just because they're intermediate.

 

They're not forcing slam across a slam try. They're bidding game in partner's first bid suit across a slam try. YOU call it forcing to slam because in your agreements even though responder has shown two other suits and has never supported clubs, none the less the slam try is in clubs. For people DON'T have that agreement, five diamonds means "how about we play five diamonds". I know it's a shocking idea, that bidding game means that you want to play at game in that denomination, but somehow that's become the default meaning of the bid.

 

I'm not dissing your agreements. They're good agreements. They're fine weapons to add to an intermediate's arsenal. They are awful things to spring on partner in the middle of a session. "Well, I thought you'd know that I liked clubs" is nasty and insulting.

 

You take clients, right? If you were hired for a knockout by somebody who described themselves as "beginner" or "intermediate" and who played BBO basic, which of these fine bids would you spring on them during the second hand of the match?

[analysismi]

3NT is game in a minor, especially if you have stoppers. If you are going to game, go to the right one. Also, unless you have very specific partnership agreements about deciding how solid suits are, you just can't get to the slams with < 30 points. Not with beginner-intermediate standard bidding.

 

South is silly for choosing clubs, but fine for stopping in game.

[jillybean]

3NT is game in a minor, especially if you have stoppers.  If you are going to game, go to the right one.  Also, unless you have very specific partnership agreements about deciding how solid suits are, you just can't get to the slams with < 30 points.  Not with beginner-intermediate standard bidding.

 

South is silly for choosing clubs, but fine for stopping in game.

 

 

haha shoot me, I give up. You can't post these in the Advanced forum and when you post here youre told as a B/I you can't bid these anyway.

[655321]

3NT is game in a minor, especially if you have stoppers.  If you are going to game, go to the right one.  Also, unless you have very specific partnership agreements about deciding how solid suits are, you just can't get to the slams with < 30 points.  Not with beginner-intermediate standard bidding.

 

South is silly for choosing clubs, but fine for stopping in game.

North did not bid 1♠ over 1♦.

North did not bid NT over 2♥.

South has the singleton ♠A.

What do think they will lead against 3NT?

 

Of course South is correct to play in clubs instead of notrumps.

 

(Yes, 4♣ forcing is a much better bid than 5♣. But if partner is liable to pass 4♣, 5♣ is at least practical, and anyway it is a much better bid than the horrible 3NT).

[jtfanclub]

haha shoot me, I give up. You can't post these in the Advanced forum and when you post here youre told as a B/I you can't bid these anyway.

Well, why not ask what agreements it takes to bid these, or how can we find slam?

 

Why does one of the bids have to be bad? Why does there have to be fault?

[the hog]

haha shoot me,  I give up.  You can't  post these in the Advanced forum and when you post here youre told as a B/I you can't bid these anyway.

Well, why not ask what agreements it takes to bid these, or how can we find slam?

 

Why does one of the bids have to be bad? Why does there have to be fault?

Because 5C is a bludgeon bid. It will end the auction when you have a slam available.

As I said, 4C is forcing; given that it may be misunderstood, bid 3S earlier - not ideal to splinter on a stiff Ace, but at least it will not be misunderstood.

[benlessard]

What maybe beginners dont understand is that 2C (& 3C after 2H GF) doesnt show a minimum hand.

 

AJx

AKx

x

AJxxxx

 

1C-----1D

???

 

you may not agree with 2C here but its the "standard bid". Your clubs are not good enough for 3C. Some will bid 2Nt but partner going to expect that you are balanced and that you have at most 5 clubs. It might be tough afterward to play 6C instead of 3Nt/6D. Of course 2C isnt perfect, if partner got 3 clubs hes going to raise even with little values. If hes got 1 clubs and cannot bid 2D/2Nt then game is unlikely anyway. With 9 pts and 2 clubs he will raise you a fair amount of time. The problems hands are if hes got 7-8pts and a 2 card support (in that case game might be good or it might be bad)

 

After 2H Gf, 3C doesnt show or denies extras. So 5C is premature. Even in a very strong field the majority will be in 6 and not in 7. Tough hand

[jtfanclub]

After 2H Gf, 3C doesnt show or denies extras.

My turn for the '?'

 

Is that actually standard? It seems...odd, to say the least.

 

There are about 5 bids I'd rather make on the example hand rather than 3♣. They include 2♠ (control with extras), 2NT (control without extras), and 3♥ (3 card support with honor help). I'd probably pick 3♥. I would never consider 3♣.

 

But then, sometimes my definitions of what is 'standard' aren't standard.

[vuroth]

Also, unless you have very specific partnership agreements about deciding how solid suits are, you just can't get to the slams with < 30 points. Not with beginner-intermediate standard bidding.

Really? Not even with reverses, forcing auctions, and control-showing cue bids?

 

I mean, advanced bidding will almost certainly be BETTER at finding the slams, but surely a B/I can look at the shape of their hand and say "Hey, maybe this is all working!"

 

I'm a B/I because I make really horrible mistakes, not because I'm allergic to slams.