4th Suit Forcing

[OleBerg]

Playing it as excactly invitational has some merit. Not nescesarily so hot when you bid it, but all the times you bid your forcing hand naturally, you are ahead.

I kinda of lean toward the opposite. Some problems hand are if you play a very basic responses over the FSF.

 

1D-----1H

2C-----2S

3H-----???

 

 

1H-----1S

2D-----3C

3S-----??? here you had a big H fit. But know you are a bit screwed.

 

etc...

 

Here youll have a hard time setting trumps. Is 4m a cue or setting trumps. These problems are mostly because these auction are undisscussed.

Hi Ben,

 

I wrote "Exactly invitational".

 

Thus,

 

1♦-1♥

2♣-2♠

3♥

 

No problem, I pass, as partner didn't accept my invitation.

 

1♥-1♠

2♦

 

I simply bid 3♥ (Forcing) with a big heart fit.

 

Better than going via

 

1♥-1♠

2♦-3♣

 

which contains a lot of risk for not showing my hand with a forcing bid.

[Stephen Tu]

I don't often play it since 4sGF is so popular, but I've always had a preference to play Richard Pavlicek style as described in his system notes (http://www.rpbridge.net/rpbr.htm#09), where 2nd round jumps are GF & 4sF is usually invitational but occasionally employed on a few awkward GF hands. + some twists where he plays raising opener's minor to the 3 level as forcing.

 

What I see as the main benefits:

- in a slam inv sequence, it's unambiguous what responder wants the trump suit to be. After some 4sGF auctions it's unclear whether responder is setting trumps or is still groping for the right game. Opener has a clearer idea of what features to show if he knows responder's hand type, whereas after 4sF he has to cater to all possible GF hands and may show something that doesn't really help.

- responders balanced hand NT ladder is better defined, in terms of how much extras. You can show 18-19 w/ a F jump to 2nt & follow w/ 4nt. You can show some extra w/ 16-17 (double jump 3nt) instead of having somewhat of a guess after opener's 2nt or 3 level suit rebid after 4sf which might have extras also, but may be unsafe to pass 3nt if opener can be min.

- sometimes can stop lower when opener is min and not accepting invites.

 

4sGF sometimes keeps the auction lower but at the expense of murkiness sometimes when all GF hands are going through that, I basically feel it's overloaded.

[benlessard]

I wrote "Exactly invitational".

My mistake my post wasnt clear. What i meant was that the bidding sequence ive showned are problems for FSF (not for FSI) but that is because people dont discussed how to setup trump after opener made the 3rd bid. In theory on those hands FSF should be better placed because opener had the chance to make 3 meaningful bid and responder 1 wheiter in FSI both have made 2 significant bid.

 

If we compare sequence that take the same amount of space.

1D-----1S

2C-----2H (Gf)

3C ====== opener made 3 significant bid/ responder 1

 

to

 

1D-----1S

2C-----3C (Gf)======opener made 2 significant bids/ responder made 2

 

or

 

1D-----1S

2C-----2H (GF)

3D======= opener made 3 significant bid/ responder 1

 

to

 

1D-----1S

2C-----3D (Gf) ====opener made 2 significant bids/ responder made 2

 

its clear the bidding is more natural and simpler when there was a GF raise. But with a proper followed up (relays etc) i think regular FSF should in theory yield better results. Once opener already showed a big part of its hand its better that responder ask for further information (relay style) ) instead of sending information (natural bidding style).

 

The best example of this is.

 

1D----1S

2C----2H (Gf)

3S (showing exactly 3154 extra strenght)

 

here relay bidder will be happy, exact shape and pinpoint strenght is known.

 

But for natural bidders its a nightmare, trump isnt set and its not clear if 4C,4D are natural or cuebids, its going to be murky even for experienced partnership.

 

Im a firm believer into FSI because i hate playing at the 3 level for no reason.

 

1D----1H

1S----2C (FSI)

 

here instead of having plenty of way to show GF hands i prefer to be able to invite and be able to finish in 2D or in 2M. Another side benefit is when youre invitation is in unclear denomination.

 

1H----1S

2C----

 

many time here you are going to have invitationnal hand with unclear direction.

 

JTxxxx

Kx

Axx

Kx

 

FSI and pass or correct responses do wonders on hand like these.

Note that opener can be dead minimum and up to 17 so INV hands are going to be slightly more frequent than GF hands.

[gnasher]

1D----1S

2C----2H (Gf)

3S (showing exactly 3154 extra strenght)

 

here relay bidder will be happy, exact shape and pinpoint strenght is known.

 

But for natural bidders its a nightmare, trump isnt set and its not clear if 4C,4D are natural or cuebids, its going to be murky even for experienced partnership.

The problems of standard fourth suit forcing are real, but let's not exaggerate them. This sequence isn't murky in any of my partnerships, whether experienced or otherwise. 4♣ and 4♦ are natural; 4♥ is artificial and agrees spades.