Move Again?

[rogerclee]

IMPs, White vs Red, First Seat

 

♠AQx ♥void ♦AJTxx ♣AQT9x

 

1♦ - (P) - 3♦ - (Dbl)

4♥ - (P) - 5♣ - (P)

?

 

3♦ was "preemptive" by the standards of a normal pickup partnership that plays inverted minors.

 

Agree with 4♥? Now what?

[han]

I think I would have bid 5D over 3D but now this looks very good. I'd bid 6D, even 7 might have good chances opposite the perfect dummy.

[kfay]

I think 7 is a longshot. 6 looks like it will have its share of problems even if 5♣ shows the K (♠, trump loser) to me so I'll content myself with 6.

[gnasher]

Assuming that the only diamond raises he had were 2♦ and 3♦, it's possible for partner to have xxx xxx KQxx Kxx or xxx xx Kxxxx Kxx. I'd bid 5NT (GSF).

 

Partner should treat Kxxxx as two top honours, because he knows that I have at least Axxxx, and he knows that I know he can't have AKxxx as well as ♣K.

[rogerclee]

Partner should treat Kxxxx as two top honours, because he knows that I have at least Axxxx, and he knows that I know he can't have AKxxx as well as ♣K.

I think this is a big issue. Would you ever bid 5♣ on a stiff?

[kenrexford]

Damn I wish I knew more about partner's style.

 

It sounds like he has something like ♠xxx ♥xxx ♦Kxxxx ♣Kx. I'll have some trouble making 7 if the diamonds split 3-0 and the clubs 4-2 (Jack protected). I can establish my clubs in that event, and hook the spade (probably working), but then I have another loser. I might pitch it on the diamonds on a heart lead (ruff, club to King, ruff, diamond Ace, club Ace, ruff club, ruff heart, diamond up), but then I need the diamond 9 from partner.

 

If partner has the diamond Queen, that's a fairly strong hand, but that does increase my chances a lot. A third club would be nice, as well, as I might have a lesser need for a club ruff. I'm not sure where this is going, but I cannot imagine 7 lacking play if partner bids it, and he will be real hesitant to bid it blindly, so maybe one more stab at the grand makes sense.

 

5♥ seems right. Definite void, definite grand interest. If partner bids something interesting, I might move. Still wondering...

 

ADDED: Just saw that 5♣ could be a stiff. Yes, I agree. It could. He better not cooperate with the grand try is he has that, though. Plus, that seems to make him with six diamonds, and I'd probably have hope in the grand, actually. Both finesses don't have to work, but they might.

[gnasher]

I think this is a big issue. Would you ever bid 5♣ on a stiff?

I don't think he should.

 

If he has, with something like xxx xxx Kxxxxx x, he certainly shouldn't then claim to hold two top trump honours. He should be aware that I'm probably visualising a top club in his hand, and so may not have all the tricks I think I've got.

 

Finally, if I find myself in 7♦ opposite this, I won't mind much. I have 11 tricks on top and will take the odds-on club finesse for 12. My 13th will come from either a long club or a spade finesse.

[gnasher]

It sounds like he has something like ♠xxx ♥xxx ♦Kxxxx ♣Kx. I'll have some trouble making 7 if the diamonds split 3-0 and the clubs 4-2 (Jack protected). I can establish my clubs in that event, and hook the spade (probably working), but then I have another loser.

What's 5 + 4 + 2 + 2?

[kenrexford]

It sounds like he has something like ♠xxx ♥xxx ♦Kxxxx ♣Kx.  I'll have some trouble making 7 if the diamonds split 3-0 and the clubs 4-2 (Jack protected).  I can establish my clubs in that event, and hook the spade (probably working), but then I have another loser.

What's 5 + 4 + 2 + 2?

Oh yeah -- I only need to ruff one club. Duh!

 

The more I think about this, maybe I should bid 6♣.

[pclayton]

I wouldn't ever take 5♣ as a stiff, and I refuse to open that whole can of worms again. If pard has a slam try without a club or spade control, 4N is available.

 

I do agree with 5♥. We really don't need much and the ♠K has to be on.

[Guest Jlall]

Why can't 5C be a stiff, I don't get it? A stiff club is a great feature to have on this auction, I would certainly cuebid it if I had it. I don't agree with 4H, I would have bid 4C to show my second suit but 4H is ok.

[Guest Jlall]

I think I would have bid 5D over 3D .

??? Why would you do this?

[mikeh]

Why can't 5C be a stiff, I don't get it? A stiff club is a great feature to have on this auction, I would certainly cuebid it if I had it. I don't agree with 4H, I would have bid 4C to show my second suit but 4H is ok.

To expand on this, if 5♣ is a stiff, the odds are very high that partner has 6 diamonds.. on the assumption that he would have bid a major with 4 of them... now, he might bid 3♦ on 432 5432 KQxxx x, but I'd bet against it in this era of 5 card majors.

 

And if he is xxx xxx Kxxxxx x, I like my chances in 6♦. Heck, I like my chances in grand.

[Guest Jlall]

Why can't 5C be a stiff, I don't get it? A stiff club is a great feature to have on this auction, I would certainly cuebid it if I had it. I don't agree with 4H, I would have bid 4C to show my second suit but 4H is ok.

To expand on this, if 5♣ is a stiff, the odds are very high that partner has 6 diamonds.. on the assumption that he would have bid a major with 4 of them... now, he might bid 3♦ on 432 5432 KQxxx x, but I'd bet against it in this era of 5 card majors.

 

And if he is xxx xxx Kxxxxx x, I like my chances in 6♦. Heck, I like my chances in grand.

I guess it's a style thing, I would definitely bid 3D with a 4 card major and a weak hand and 5 or 6 diamonds (similar to the hand you gave, but especially if weaker). If I had a decent hand I would never do that though.

[jtfanclub]

Why isn't anybody opening this 2♣? :)

 

Just messin' witcha. It would not occur to me at the table to bid 4♥, but I like it. Curious as to how 5♥ and 5♠ would be interpreted.

[rogerclee]

Okay I just wanted to see what people would do. I was torn between 6♦ and 5♥/5NT.

 

What actually happened at the table wasn't bridge, so I guess it's not really relevant. Partner had ♠Jxx ♥Jxx ♦Kxxxx ♣Kx and 7♦ rolls home easy. I don't think this is a 3♦ call, but whatever.

 

(On top of this, partner failed to bid 5♣; he signed off in 5♦. This turned out to be sort of a winning action when LHO sacrificed in 5♥ and misplayed it a trick for 1400. lol)

[gnasher]

Partner had ♠Jxx ♥Jxx ♦Kxxxx ♣Kx

In a "normal pickup partnership that plays inverted minors", what should this hand respond?

[rogerclee]

Partner had ♠Jxx ♥Jxx ♦Kxxxx ♣Kx

In a "normal pickup partnership that plays inverted minors", what should this hand respond?

1NT. My comment about "not being bridge" was not directed at this call but what later happened.

[gnasher]

"Inverted minors" used to mean that you invert the two- and three-level raises. That is, you bid 3♦ with hand worth the two level and 2♦ with a hand worth the three level or more. Maybe the method needs a new name.

[Guest Jlall]

The problem is that you need "weak raise" "mixed raise" and "limit(+) raise." Most people who play inverted minors assume with a mixed raise you bid 1N, and 3D is weak and 2D is limit+.

[Finch]

The problem is that you need "weak raise" "mixed raise" and "limit(+) raise." Most people who play inverted minors assume with a mixed raise you bid 1N, and 3D is weak and 2D is limit+.

Do they really?

 

I have always just assumed that 'standard' is to bid 3D with a mixed raise, pass with a pre-emptive raise and bid 2D with a limit(+) raise. How can 1NT on a mixed raise possibly make sense? What is partner supposed to do after it with a good hand, have some artificial enquiry to find out if we have 5-card support or not*?

 

If I were forced to use 1NT for one of my diamonds raises I'd rather bid it with a pre-emptive raise, because

i) A mixed raise is much more common than a pre-emptive raise, and

ii) I'm more likely to make 3D/go off in 1NT with a mixed raise, so the loss is greater if I'm left to play there.

 

 

Do you alert the 1NT response as 'may have an unbalanced hand with diamond support' ?

 

With regular partners I play 2NT as a weak raise, but that was just a random addition to original inverted raises.

 

*OK, so I play 1D - 1NT - 2C as artificial in one partnership. But not for this reason.

[andy_h]

Maybe the trend is, people start with 2D 6-9 and 3D as 10-12 and then discover inverted minors so they exchange both bids. And then they start to like the preempt 1m-3m more and it then comes a 0-9 range, and soon they realise that 0-9 is too difficult to handle and then define 3m as a preemptive raise of 0-6 or something and have the 7-9 with 1NT. Then they may discover criss-cross raises of 1m-jumpotherminor as a mixed raise.

[SoTired]

i thot it was 2d = LR+

j/s in other minor (3c) = mixed raise

3d = weak

 

OR

 

2d = gf

j/s om= lr

3d = mixed raise

pass = weak

[awm]

The auction 1♦-3♣ is not necessarily available for use as a diamond raise, at least not without substantial cost.

 

If 1♦-2♣ is forcing to game, then you need 1♦-3♣ as your invitational club hand (i.e. 9-11 with a nice six-card suit). It is not very desirable to bid 2NT invitational on that hand. This treatment (1♦-3♣ INV, 1♦-2♣ GF) is quite common in pickup partnerships especially on the west coast.

 

If 1♦-2♣ is just a one-round force, you still might want 1♦-3♣ as a strong jump shift (since 1♦-2♣-2♦-3♣ is presumably NF). And there is also no way to bid constructive club hands (i.e. 5-8 hcp and 6-7♣); if you don't need 1♦-3♣ as either strong or invitational then you might want it to show that hand rather than having to bid 1NT with it.

[benlessard]

IMO

 

In pair in order of importance.

 

1- you need a preemptive raise.

2- you need a single raise.

3- a forcing raise is nice because bidding a 3card major is distatefull.

4- There is no great use for 1D----3C.

 

In imps

1- you need a preemptive raise

2- you need a forcing raise limit or better but bidding a 3card major is playable.

3- You need a single raise

4- there is no great use for 1D-----3C.

 

my recommended setup in pair is

 

3D preempt

2D single raise

3C limit or better

 

In imps i suggest the same. But if you are an addict to inverted minors... that 3C become the single raise and 2D is limit or better.