Explanation of bidding

[ArtK78]

In an ACBL Matchpoint game on BBO, I picked up the following collection:

 

AKxx

QJ

AKT

AKQx

 

I opened 2♣, and partner responded 2♦ (waiting, but not negative - 2♥ would be negative). I rebid 2♥ - Kokish - intending to rebid 3NT to show a balanced 24-26 HCP (please, don't quibble about hand evaluation here concerning the QJ of hearts - that is not the issue).

 

In the alert box, I typed in "Kokish Relay." One of the opponents questioned this explanation. I typed in "I will describe later." In private chat at the table, I informed both opponents that the 2♥ bid was a relay to 2♠ and was artificial. The auction continued as expected - 2♠ by partner, 3NT by me, all pass.

 

The opening lead was the ♠10, and I found that our hands were as follows:[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sqjxxhxxdq9xxxcxx&s=sakxxhqjdaktcakqx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

At about the time that the 3NT bid was made, the opponents called for the TD and the TD told me that I should have just said "Kokish,' not "Kokish Relay." Then I was told that I should not have described the meaning of 2♥ in private chat, that I should only use the alert box. Furthermore, the TD told me he might have to award a score adjustment, as LHO might have led a heart, as LHO's hand was:

 

T9xxx

K9xxx

x

Tx

 

I told the TD that I had more than adequately alerted the opponents that the 2♥ bid was artificial, and that LHO's spade lead was perfectly normal on this auction.

 

No score adjustment was awarded, but the TD kept telling me that what I did was improper.

 

Your thoughts?

[SoTired]

are we allowed to comment on the apparent misuse of kokish?

[helene_t]

I suppose the TD meant it is preferable to use the alert box rather than private chat because the TD can see the alert text.

 

But sometimes the alert box is not long enough. I think the TD ought to understand this.

[mcphee]

I happen to be one of those bozos who think that a player should EXPLAIN the conventional bid rather than type the name of the conventional toy in use.

Reason #1: the name of the convention is not what people are requesting information on.

Reason #2: Many of the players involved in these games have never heard of some of the conventional names and find it intimidating.

Reason #3: The ability to use a convention as you see fit is your choice and each partnership adjusts the toy to fit the methods they use. For example, if the person knows about Kokish they get set off track from the explanation which is outside of the convention itself. This causes a minor problem that inexpirienced players find awkward to cope with.

reason #4: Avoid annoying the director.

 

While space is limited for explanations, my feelings are you should say something along the lines of " artificial, forces partner to bid 2S, or puppet to 2S . There is absolutely no need to offer additional information unless the players request it.

[rogerclee]

1) Why do you play Kokish if you are not going to use it for its intended purpose?

2) You obviously think you are right. I agree with you, but I also think this is so clear that I am not sure what you are looking for. The TD is telling you it is improper because it is harder for him to tell what is going on if the explanations aren't documented (reasonable). Obviously even he agrees with you, because no adjustment was made.

[Finch]

I opened 2♣, and partner responded 2D (waiting, but not negative - 2♥ would be negative). I rebid 2♥ - Kokish - intending to rebid 3NT to show a balanced 24-26 HCP (please, don't quibble about hand evaluation here concerning the QJ of hearts - that is not the issue).

 

It's actually this bit I don't get.

There are three NT ranges, covered by

- opening 2NT

- opening 2C and rebidding 2NT

- opening 2C and rebidding 2H then 2NT over 2S

 

These can be defined in various ways, but (with some +/- on teh numbers)

20-22

22-24

25+

 

the last of these is game forcing

 

There are various minor theoretical points as to which range should go to which sequence, but the way I was taught the Kokish 2H bid is that

 

2C - 2D - 2H - 3NT

 

shows a heart hand, not a balanced hand (e.g. a 2632 hand with 9 tricks)

 

and all balanced hands rebid/open 2NT

 

Thus against me you would never lead a heart, because I've shown 6 of them.

 

You obviously play Kokish differently, as is your right. But this is the point: it's better to just alert 2H as "art: H or bal <range>" which is just as easy to type as 'Kokish relay' and avoids confusion.

 

There's clearly no adjusted score becauase your opponents didn't try and find out what the 3NT rebid meant.

[ArtK78]

A few extra comments.

 

This was in a Speedball Game, so time is limited. Also, space in the alert box is limited. This is why I explained the meaning of the bid in private chat to both opponents.

 

Normally, I do explain the meaning of bids rather than use convention names. However, even the explanation "artificial, asks partner to bid 2S" isn't a very good explanation of the bid. It is true as far as it goes, but it doesn't describe what type of hand would bid 2♥.

 

The TD started a long conversation with me and, inadvertently, gave me information about the opening leader's hand. Had I chosen to take advantage of the situation, I could have run the diamond suit.

 

After the opening lead was made, and it was clear that the leader led a spade from T98xx, I commented to the TD that the lead was perfectly normal and that there was no reason for an adjustment. He said "No, the opening leader had a normal heart lead which beats the contract. You will see after the hand." The TD told me this before I played to trick 2. I could have used this information to infer that LHO was short in diamonds and picked up the diamond suit for 12 tricks.

 

The TD told me that if the opps had complained to him about the "misinformation," he would have assigned an adjusted score.

 

Aside from the fact that at matchpoints it is far from clear that LHO will lead a heart from Kxxxx rather than a spade from T98xx with both suits unbid, what do you think of the TD's comments?

[helene_t]

I don't think you should argue with the TD during the hand unless the TD asks you for your opinion. Just play the hand and, if necessary, argue about the adjustment afterwards. (Not sure what specific procedures apply to the ACBL tourneys. Maybe the right thing to do would be to mail a complaint to acbl@bbo after the tourney in case the TD had made an adjustment that you disapproved of).

 

It is possible that LHO thought you had hearts since you didn't bid 2NT over 2♠.

 

It may be true that it isn't clear that LHO's normal lead was a heart, but the TD must give the non-offenders the benefit of the doubt. (By saying this I am not implying that there was an infraction. I suppose Frances is right that there is no basis for an adjustment).

[ArtK78]

I opened 2♣, and partner responded 2D (waiting, but not negative - 2♥ would be negative). I rebid 2♥ - Kokish - intending to rebid 3NT to show a balanced 24-26 HCP (please, don't quibble about hand evaluation here concerning the QJ of hearts - that is not the issue).

 

It's actually this bit I don't get.

There are three NT ranges, covered by

- opening 2NT

- opening 2C and rebidding 2NT

- opening 2C and rebidding 2H then 2NT over 2S

 

These can be defined in various ways, but (with some +/- on teh numbers)

20-22

22-24

25+

 

the last of these is game forcing

 

There are various minor theoretical points as to which range should go to which sequence, but the way I was taught the Kokish 2H bid is that

 

2C - 2D - 2H - 3NT

 

shows a heart hand, not a balanced hand (e.g. a 2632 hand with 9 tricks)

 

and all balanced hands rebid/open 2NT

 

Thus against me you would never lead a heart, because I've shown 6 of them.

 

You obviously play Kokish differently, as is your right. But this is the point: it's better to just alert 2H as "art: H or bal <range>" which is just as easy to type as 'Kokish relay' and avoids confusion.

 

There's clearly no adjusted score becauase your opponents didn't try and find out what the 3NT rebid meant.

Yes, we play Kokish differently. One reason is that we are already in a game forcing auction, as the 2♦ bid denies a negative response.

 

With hearts, we bid something other than NT over the 2♠ puppet. Our NT structure is:

 

2NT - 20-21

2♣ then 2NT - 22-23

2♣ then 2♥ then 2NT - 24-25 or 28+

2♣ then 2♥ then 3NT - 26-27

 

One can argue whether this is method is optimal, or that my hand wasn't really at 26 HCP hand. But these points are not the reason for this thread.

 

When I rebid 3NT, I alerted it as showing 26-27 HCP. So, there wasn't any issue on the meaning of the 3NT call.

 

Helene comments that I should not be arguing with the TD. But it was not me who initiated the dialogue - it was the TD. I was trying to declare the hand. The opps had an explanation of the bidding. For some reason, the TD decided that my explanation of the 2♥ call put the opps off from a "normal" heart lead. The TD was arguing with me while I was playing the hand.

 

Whatever else might be said about the hand, I think the TD should just do what he would do in a normal face-to-face game. Take the complaint of the non-offending side and reserve judgment until later. Certainly, the opps were not going to enter the auction. By engaging me in a dialogue during the play of the hand, time was lost. We didn't get to play the third board of the round (the opps had used up much of our time on the first board, and this was the second).

[jillybean]

The TD told me that if the opps had complained to him about the "misinformation," he would have assigned an adjusted score.

Where is the MI? Unfortunate lead but no damage.

 

Why was the following board adjusted A=+ in favour of your ops?

[1eyedjack]

The explanation box is inadequate for the purpose of documenting explanations.

Aside from the limited field size available, if you provide the information in more than one go, it overwrites the original explanation, so any TD who assumes that he has access to all of the information imparted, even if it was entirely imparted through the bidding window, is deluding himself.

 

I suppose that the TD could impose as a condition of the tournament that explanations must be imparted through that medium, but it still falls short of a "solution" for the reasons stated above. Without such a stated precondition there is no reason to suppose that a private message to opponents falls short of the requirements.

 

Speedball events are particularly vulnerable to miscarriages of justice. There may be a case for an imposed, simple system being in place in such events.

 

BTW I would not award an adjustment, for what that is worth (and that is not a lot).

[jillybean]

FWIW The alert box is perfect for a quick description and alert of the bid. If the opps want more or you need to provide more information the chat function is the best method imo.

[ArtK78]

The TD told me that if the opps had complained to him about the "misinformation," he would have assigned an adjusted score.

Where is the MI? Unfortunate lead but no damage.

 

Why was the following board adjusted A=+ in favour of your ops?

I noticed that the opps got an Average Plus for the unplayed board, while we only got an average. I can only guess that the opponents complained about the inability to play the last board, and the TD gave them an Average Plus, assuming that the delay was caused by the problem on the 3NT hand. I did not complain about it, so I didn't get an Average Plus - just an average. I had had enough aggrevation for one session.

[pclayton]

I would have alerted 2♥ as "artificial: either hearts or certain ranges of balanced hands". Unless your opponents have a demonstrated level of competency, I don't like to use the names of conventions as explanations.

[ArtK78]

I would have alerted 2♥ as "artificial: either hearts or certain ranges of balanced hands". Unless your opponents have a demonstrated level of competency, I don't like to use the names of conventions as explanations.

I agree. This is no doubt the correct procedure. But sometimes it is hard to come up with exactly the right phrase especially in the setting of a speedball game.

[Gerben42]

If you alert a bid, I want to know what it shows, not who your favourite bridge player is. So the explanation "Kokish" is worth exactly nothing. You should write "♥ or 25+ balanced" or something like that, i.e. your agreement.

 

I do feel that your opponents might be trying to get a double shot here...

[jdonn]

I would have alerted 2♥ as "artificial: either hearts or certain ranges of balanced hands". Unless your opponents have a demonstrated level of competency, I don't like to use the names of conventions as explanations.

I agree. This is no doubt the correct procedure. But sometimes it is hard to come up with exactly the right phrase especially in the setting of a speedball game.

I personally don't have much sympathy for you, sorry. For one thing it's actually easier to type "!Hs OR 25+ balanced" than what you typed. For another thing when you rebid 3NT (for some strange reason that I can't figure out?) many or most Kokish pairs play that shows long hearts in a game forcing balanced hand, but you never explained that bid as far as I can see. For another I believe your opponent did indeed have a perfectly normal heart lead. I would say you really lucked out.

 

As a theoretical aside, the combination of 2♦ response as game forcing and kokish relay played in conjunction with each other is relatively common, but makes absolutely no sense. It's opposite partner's weakest hand that you are more likely to be very strong, that you want room to find a fit in a major if you have it, and that you can't risk him passing 2NT.

[pclayton]

I would have alerted 2♥ as "artificial: either hearts or certain ranges of balanced hands". Unless your opponents have a demonstrated level of competency, I don't like to use the names of conventions as explanations.

I agree. This is no doubt the correct procedure. But sometimes it is hard to come up with exactly the right phrase especially in the setting of a speedball game.

Yes, but in the interest of playing quickly, you slowed things down. Easier to do it right the first time.

[matmat]

IMO if opps ask for an explanation of a bid in a sequence of bids that will describe your hand fully, you should go out of your way to give a clear and concise description. Throwing out convention names is simply ridiculous.

 

something like 2♥:"artificial, various hands, my next call clarifies"

and then, without having the opps click, describe 3nt as whatever it is that you play it as

3N:"balanced 25-27" or "semi-balanced, game forcing, 6+♥" or whatever

 

I suspect the laws don't have provisions for this, but i think when you initiate a puppet sequence it's sort of like starting an "if" clause in programming -- you typically need to close it, otherwise the compile will fail...

[han]

I think the alerting was very poor. If you play a convention you should try hard to make the opponents understand your agreement, especially if they have already asked and it is clear that they do not know the convention.

[ArtK78]

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding here.

 

While I alerted at the time I made the bid with the explanation "Kokish Relay," I added an explanation of the bid in the chat to both opps before they had bid.

 

So, they had a complete explanation available to them.

[jtfanclub]

Yes, we play Kokish differently.

I don't buy that. You either play Kokish or you do not play Kokish. What are the opponents supposed to do when you describe the bid as Koskih- use their psychic powers to figure out that you're playing 'Kokish Differently'?

 

If you're going to use the name of a convention, I think it's perfectly fair for the opponents to believe that you're using the normal, standard form of the system, not something home-grown. This would be like describing a 4♣ call as 'Gerber', but neglecting to tell the opponents that the responses are 4♦ is two aces, 4♥ is 0 or 3 and 4♠ is 1 or 4. It's not fair to the opponents at all.

 

The opponents thought you had hearts. I suspect they thought so not because they were confused by Kokish, but because they thought your bidding showed hearts in Kokish. I have no idea why you would think that they would know what your 3NT bid meant, if your meaning of 3NT doesn't match the Kokish meaning of 3NT.

 

I would rule MI and adjust, I think the director gave you a break.

[han]

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding here.

 

While I alerted at the time I made the bid with the explanation "Kokish Relay," I added an explanation of the bid in the chat to both opps before they had bid.

 

So, they had a complete explanation available to them.

Oh ok, I misread this part. If you explained your convention well in chat then there is no problem.

[ArtK78]

Yes, we play Kokish differently.

I don't buy that. You either play Kokish or you do not play Kokish.

I googled Kokish and found "Kokish Relays" on the Bridge Guys website. The explanation there is very close to the method that I use.

 

So, this comment is out of line.

 

The opponents were informed that the 3NT rebid showed a balanced hand of 26-27 HCP.

 

The basic idea of Kokish 2♥ in this sequence is that the strong hand has EITHER a strong balanced hand or a strong hand with hearts. There are variations in how a particular partnership defines later bids. Exactly how a particular partnership sets its point count parameters for later rebids is not particularly relevant (although it will be announced when bid).

[jtfanclub]

Some say that it's not a part of Kokish Relays, but a 'logical extension' thereof.

 

http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/Convent...kishRelays.html

 

Some don't mention it at all:

 

http://www.bridgebum.com/kokish.php

 

http://home.att.net/~gandalfnf/lessons/lad...oc#_Toc41981337

 

Others say it shows hearts (or rather, anything but 2NT shows hearts)

 

http://www.pattayabridge.com/conventions/K...hRelay_main.htm

 

http://www.bridgehands.com/K/Kokish_Relay.htm

 

http://cuebiddingatbridge.blogspot.com/200...ting-relay.html

 

And not one mentions it as standard.

 

Those are the top 10 hits for "Kokish Relay" on Yahoo.

 

How about Google?

 

Logical Extension - 1, same as above.

Anything but 2NT shows hearts - 4

Not Mentioned - 3

Not Related - 2