Now what?

[Guest Jlall]

Also, presumably this is obvious but getting to slam is not the primary purpose of bidding 3S. The primary purpose is to avoid playing a partscore when cold for game, for example in the actual hand partner has a clear pass of 3C and you are cold for game and slam is reasonable. The secondary purpose is to find the right game, and pinpointing short spades and a club fit should help partner a lot in figuring out which game we should play.

 

Also,

 

A typical 3♣ bid is something like:

 

♠xx

♥AKxx

♦Axxx

♣xxx

 

WAT?

 

No offense but I think you are grossly under valuing aces and kings and the third club if you think this is a 3C bid (and lol at typical?). When there is a trick based 3N aces and kings are huge. For instance if partner has xxx xx xx AKQxxx you have a very good game. Yes I am aware partner might have 5 clubs, but this is much less frequent than partner having 6 clubs since presumably the only shape he has 5 clubs is 3145. Even if partner has 5 clubs this hand is way too powerful to just bid 3C. To me the thought of bidding 3C with this hand, or calling it a typical 3C bid, is mind boggling. You will miss game and/or slam an absurd amount of the time.

[awm]

My point is that I think 3♠ is more likely to cause partner to overreach to a poor slam than to find a good one.

 

I suppose if we are guaranteed that partner never blasts keycard at his next turn over 3♠, and our plan is to always sign off in 5♣ as soon as possible (even if this entails denying one or more aces we actually hold) then a 3♠ splinter accomplishes the same result as just blasting 5♣. But why take the risk?

[Guest Jlall]

I suppose if we are guaranteed that partner never blasts keycard at his next turn over 3♠, and our plan is to always sign off in 5♣ as soon as possible (even if this entails denying one or more aces we actually hold) then a 3♠ splinter accomplishes the same result as just blasting 5♣. But why take the risk?

Because partner might bid 3N, and then it is almost surely the right contract since he knows our hand pretty well?

 

My point is that if partner blasts keycard because he thinks his Qx of hearts is a good slam card he is not making a good bid since it should be evident to him that it is not. If partner needs AK A for A AQ or a spade void to make slam then it is not a good bid to bid keycard. If partner just needs 2 aces then it is a good bid to bid keycard.

[kenrexford]

A quick note: Qx in hearts is MUCH better if the diamond Kx is Ax. With that hand, you need partner to have the AK in hearts and out to make a slam (and four trumps). Qx/Kx means something is fluff.

 

That said, I'm not sure where this idea of blasting 5♣ after bidding 3♠ is coming from. Back to the xxx-Qx-Kx-AKQxxx. You bid 3♠. If partner bids, say, 4♣, you bid 4♦. If partner bids 4♥ (heart Queen), you cannot bid 4♠ (no void) and you cannot bid 4NT (you have a minimum splinter). So, you sign off then at 5♣. WTP?

[mikeh]

My point is that I think 3♠ is more likely to cause partner to overreach to a poor slam than to find a good one.

 

I suppose if we are guaranteed that partner never blasts keycard at his next turn over 3♠, and our plan is to always sign off in 5♣ as soon as possible (even if this entails denying one or more aces we actually hold) then a 3♠ splinter accomplishes the same result as just blasting 5♣. But why take the risk?

 

If your partners routinely drive to slam over 3♠ with NO side aces, and the Qx in hearts, you need to readjust your bidding calipers. Your partners are clearly expecting full opening values (and then some) for the splinter. I used to belong to a 'strong' splinter school, but was persuaded eventually that I was missing too many good contracts. Thus, for me, if I think that we can make 5♣ and that a good fitting hand will offer a play for slam, I splinter if I can. It doesn't show that I hold slam ambitions: it says that I may have a hand that will cooperate IF partner has slam ambitions once aware of my shortness.

 

And I don't understand the need for the 'guarantee' that partner won't keycard. Give him Axx x Axx AQ10xxx, if he can keycard and get out in 5♣, which he can if playing kickback, then why not keycard? Opposite x AQxxx Kxx Jxxx, and how can we have worse if he has all those Aces, of course he should keycard.

 

Given that we hold the red Aces, it becomes more difficult to construct a keycard hand: xxx Kx KQx AQxxxx? Even 2 keycards gives no great play for slam... especially if one of them is the club King :)

 

I think the lesson we can learn from this is that we can usually splinter more aggressively with side aces than without, because opener SHOULD NOT go crazy when he is missing 3 or more keycards..

 

It comes down to Justin's point about valuing Aces and Kings. Aces and Kings are HUGE for game and slam when we have a source of tricks. Axx xx xx AKxxxx makes for an awesome 3N opposite this hand, but compare it to facing x KQJxx Qxx QJxx.

[mike777]

I guess I am in the strong splinter school. If partner bid 3s, with the example hand

xxx...Qx.....Kx....AKQxxx I am bidding rkc and slam if they show 2 aces. I just thought the OP hand was borderline 3s not a wtp 3s bid.

 

I certainly understand bidding 3s in the OP and will rkc with OP hand if 3c cannot be 12-13 support points. I can understand bidding 3s even if it 3c does. I do not see anything wrong with 3c showing 12-13 support points if we are opening 10-11 point hands with 6 clubs.

 

Interesting thread.

 

btw the poll votes gave three main responses, 3c or 3s or 4d. I emailed this around and got the same three responses. As a side note is this slam 50% or better missing a keycard and Q of clubs?

[han]

Partner didn't want to rebid 1NT on three small spades? That's hilarious!

 

Bidding game because you are too weak to make a descriptive gameforcing bid but too strong too invite is also pretty funny.

[ulven]

3S for me too, which btw isn't F to game in our style. It's forcing to 3NT/4m giving us a shot at game and a chance to bail out with ill-fitting minimum. So, 4C would then be NF and 4D is FG/slamtry for clubs.