Using 2NT as a raise.

[han]

In some auctions we use 2NT as a raise of partner's major. In which of the following auctions do you think it is a good idea to do so, and in which of these auctions would you prefer to have a natural 2NT?

 

1. 1S - (2D) - 2NT?

 

2. 1H - (1S) - 2NT?

 

3. (1D) - 1H - (p) - 2NT?

 

4. (1D) - 1H - (2D) - 2NT?

 

5. (1S) - 2H - (p) - 2NT?

 

6. (1S) - 2H - (2S) - 2NT?

 

Maybe I'm missing some important auctions.

 

Although it was not the purpose of this thread, but if you have good ideas about what the best meaning of an artificial 2NT in these auctions is then I would enjoy hearing about it. Does anybody play transfers starting with 2NT in auction 6?

[Sambolino]

i like every one of these

[han]

Alright, I like 1 and 2, I dislike 3 and 5 and I don't feel strongly about 4 and 6. Currently Arend and I don't play 4 and 6 as raises (I believe).

[Fluffy]

when partner opened, 2NT is not a good contract, use it as a raise and just blast 3NT with the invitational hand with honnors allocated.

 

But when partner overcalled, he has a wider range, he could be 7 HCP or 15, that's were you really want 2NT invitational, not only to play 2NT, but to let partner sing off at the 3 level with a 2 suiter or something like.

 

Also you have cuebids avaible on most hands to show support.

 

(6) might be an exception since there is no cuebid avaible, but again, good hands with support might just bid game on this secuence.

[awm]

1. Natural. Double would show 4♥ and we need a way to bid the invitational hand without four hearts. There are already three ways to raise spades to the three level (3♠, 3♦, 3♥).

 

2. Natural. Similar to case 1. We already have many raises available (2♠, 3♥, fit jumps).

 

3. Natural. Again, we have many raises available (2♦, 3♦, 3♥, fit jumps).

 

4. Slight preference for natural, but I could go either way here. Again we have 3♦ as a raise.

 

5. Prefer to play this as two-way. Partner's 2♥ call is usually either a really good hand (which would accept a 2NT "invite") or 6+♥ (which should rebid 3♥ over 2NT) or some decent 5-5 hand. Partner will virtually never be balanced or almost balanced with only 5♥ and less than 14 or so hcp. So it makes sense to play 2NT as "forcing one round" without necessarily promising a fit.

 

6. Raise. Start of transfers is okay too. Note that here we have only one way to raise hearts to the three level (3♥) and having an alternative method (i.e. invitational vs. competitive) is very useful. Virtually all "natural 2NT" hands should be able to double in this auction; partner is not really leaving 2NT in regardless (again he normally has 6+♥ or 5+m or enough values for game opposite an invitational 2NT).

 

I think a reasonable rule is: if there is more than one call which raises partner's suit to the three-level without calling 2NT a raise, then 2NT is natural. If the only way to raise partner's suit to the three-level is to bid three of his suit, then 2NT becomes a stronger raise. If partner has overcalled at the two-level and 2NT could be natural, then it is a "forcing 2NT" since partner will normally have extra shape or game values opposite the invite. Such a forcing 2NT call could conceal a three-card fit.

[Apollo81]

My preference:

 

1. 4-card raise. I think distinguishing between 3-card (cuebid) and 4-card (2NT) raises is more important than being able to show a natural 2NT, which can (with potential issues) go through double.

 

2. 4-card raise. Same reasons as (1)

 

3. 4-card raise. I like making very light 1-level overcalls, so there's little need for a natural 2NT. If I'm not playing xfer advances I like using this as a 4-card limit+ raise and the jump cue as a mixed raise. A non-jump cue would show only three card support.

 

4. 4-card raise. Same reasons as (2).

 

5. Natural. Here partner has shown a good hand, and we have few other invitational options.

 

6. Natural. Unlike (1) and (2), there's no other route to a natural 2NT here other than 'bid it now'

[fromageGB]

You asked for interesting transfer ideas - I'm actually playing transfers on some of your early sequences.

 

1S - (2D) - 2NT is a transfer to the other minor, as we have 3C and 3D as invitational support raises. Apollo emphasised the importance of distinguishing between 3 and 4 card constructive raises, and we use 3C and 3D for this.

 

1H - (1S) - 2NT on the other hand is natural, as we play 1NT as a transfer to clubs. X is a transfer to 1NT, and we could raise this to 2NT, so a direct 2NT implies really good spade stops. As you may surmise, we have given up on a double to find a 4-4 minor fit on this sequence, but if opener is unbalanced he can respond to the X by bidding a minor, as the transfer to 1NT is not obligatory.

[kenrexford]

1& 2 are raises for me. The debate is whether to focus on trump length or general strength. Apparently this was also a debate for Meckwell, or so I have heard. Thus, having the cue and 2NT available, do you have one show 3-card limit+ and the other 4+ limit+, or have one show 3+ limit and the other 3+ GF. My partner and I decided upon strength distinctions (2NT as a limit raise), but with no strong convictions.

 

I also agree that 3&5 make no sense as raises. Natural is too important here.

 

On the 4&6 question, 2NT here as a raise is one treatment that could be used. I would and do use 2NT as a raise if the 2-bid was above Opener's suit (1♣-1M-2♦, for example). However, if the 2-bid is below Opener's suit (1♦-1M-2♣) then you have the cue available, and if it is a raise, I use a "stolen cue" double.

 

However, what to use 2NT for in a new-suit scenario under Opener's suit may be better analyzed if you distinguish whether the new-suit 2-bid under Opener's suit is a NFB or standard 10+. If standard 10+, then 2NT should be a raise, IMO, and distinguishing along the same lines as when you have an overcall of an opening bid. If the 2-bid is a NFB, then perhaps the natural meaning makes more sense. Not sure. I just know that we would use this as a raise, but not that this is always best, in light of the NFB issue.

 

In the scenario of the raise, raises can be junk, so a natural 2NT seems reasonable to maintain IF a double is a "stolen bid" double here. However, if the raise is higher-ranking (1♠-2♥-2♠), then 2NT as a raise makes more sense, IMO, because of the loss of the cue at the three-level (distinguished from teh double that operates as if a 2-level cue) and thus the loss of texture for Advancer in the event of a 1-2-3 stop decision.

[Guest Jlall]

Strongly dislike 1x 1M p 2N as a raise, and 1S 2H p 2N as a raise. The others are fine though I prefer most of them as natural.

[andy_h]

This is what I play:

1) 4card Raise

2) 4card Raise, only inv. GF 4card raises bid 3NT.

3) Natural

4) 4card Raise

5) Natural

6) 4card Raise

 

Don't like 3&5 as raises, as it just seems so important to have those as natural.

I don't play transfers in auction 6, but I guess it can work.

[inquiry]

In some auctions we use 2NT as a raise of partner's major. In which of the following auctions do you think it is a good idea to do so, and in which of these auctions would you prefer to have a natural 2NT?

1. 1S - (2D) - 2NT?

 

Yes

 

2. 1H - (1S) - 2NT?

 

Yes

 

3. (1D) - 1H - (p) - 2NT?

 

No, a natural 2NT is too important by the non-opening side

 

4. (1D) - 1H - (2D) - 2NT?

 

Yes -- exception, to rule under #3, after bid and raise, natural 2NT not so useful

 

5. (1S) - 2H - (p) - 2NT?

 

No -- see rule under #3

 

6. (1S) - 2H - (2S) - 2NT?

 

Yes -- see exception under #4, and even if you dislike the exception under #4, with 1S promising 5, you really don't need a natural 2NT on this auction.

[gnasher]

I think that being able to distinguish between good and weak raises is worth more than having a natural 2NT, but the natural 2NT is more useful than a third way to raise.

 

Hence the only one I'd actually want to play as a raise is

 

  6. (1S) - 2H - (2S) - 2NT

 

because there is no cue bid available below three of our suit.

 

In one partnership I have reluctantly agreed to play (1) and (2) as raises too.

[gnasher]

when partner opened, 2NT is not a good contract, use it as a raise and just blast 3NT with the invitational hand with honnors allocated.

The purpose of a natural 2NT is not to try to make 8 tricks without a trump suit. The idea is to describe your hand, in order to improve the chance of finding the best contract. A jump to 3NT means that you can't stop in three of partner's major; if the partnership decides to bid game, you can't investigate which game to play.

[655321]

I have a strong preference for playing (1) and (2) as raises, also like (3) and (4) as raises, (5) as natural, and (6) no preference.

[effervesce]

We play all of those situations as raises. 2NT isn't that great a spot to be able to stop in, and a natural 2NT bid can X then bid 2NT anyway.

[Finch]

I'm like gnasher. In the partnership where we play what I prefer,

 

1 is a transfer to clubs (3C = 3-card raise, 3D = 4-card raise)

 

2,3,4, and 5 are natural

 

6 is a raise because I like to have two ways of showing a raise to the 3-level.

 

In one partnership I have reluctantly agreed to play (1) and (2) as raises too.

 

When partner has overcalled and the third hand bids, I play that

- A jump to 2NT is always natural

- If there are two ways to cue below 3 of partner's suit then the cheaper shows a good 3-card raise and the more expensive shows a 4-card raise

- If there is one way to cue below 3 of partner's suit, then that shows a good raise and 2NT is lebensohl, 3 of a new suit is fit.

- If there is no way to cue below 3 of partner's suit, then 2NT shows a good raise

[gnasher]

When partner has overcalled ... If there are two ways to cue below 3 of partner's suit then the cheaper shows a good 3-card raise and the more expensive shows a 4-card raise

Is it better to distinguish between degrees of support or degrees of strength? With only two cue bids available, I prefer using one to show an invitational raise and the other an in-between raise.

[OleBerg]

Use them all for showing decent 4-card fits. Not that I like them that much. Actually the best thing about them is the other raises I can make, denying a decent hand.

 

Edit: Or showing only three-card support.

 

As it often is, the most importent thing here is to have the same agreement as your partner.

[dicklont]

When the opponents have openend or followed I prefer to cuebid to show a fit.

 

1. 1S - (2D) - 2NT?

limit, can stop diamonds, 3D would be spade fit

 

2. 1H - (1S) - 2NT?

limit, can stop spades, 2S would be heart fit

 

3. (1D) - 1H - (p) - 2NT?

good hand (12/13), can stop diamonds, no fit, 2D would be fit

 

4. (1D) - 1H - (2D) - 2NT?

same as #3, quite unlikely though double would show S/C

 

5. (1S) - 2H - (p) - 2NT?

same as #3, but can be a bit weaker

 

6. (1S) - 2H - (2S) - 2NT?

same as #5, double shows minors

[han]

The purpose of a natural 2NT is not to try to make 8 tricks without a trump suit. The idea is to describe your hand, in order to improve the chance of finding the best contract. A jump to 3NT means that you can't stop in three of partner's major; if the partnership decides to bid game, you can't investigate which game to play.

Exactly right, it is amazing how many people don't understand this.

[skjaeran]

1 and 2 would be inv+ 4c raises to me.

3, 4 and 5 natural.

6 I prefer as Good/Bad.

[glen]

Strongly dislike 1x 1M p 2N as a raise...

I strongly like (1x) 1M (p) 2NT as a raise, if you define the 2x cuebid differently than usual. What we have being playing is (points are "support points"):

 

2NT: 13-16 3+ card raise, not appropriate for splinter game forcing raise

 

cuebid:

a.) 11-12 raise (we play Bergen even after overcall so this is often just 3 card)

b.) 17+ raise

c.) natural 2NT

d.) natural 3NT with reasons to explore

e.) GF without any other good bid

 

Now (1x) 1M (p) 2x (-) 2M can be dropped by some of the hands that would have had to bid (1x) 1M (p) 2NT in more standard methods. Therefore (1x) 1M (p) 2x (-) 2M (-) 2NT is a "serious" natural 2NT, still non-forcing since in our style an overcall doesn't promise a lot of points.

[nige1]

In some auctions we use 2NT as a raise of partner's major. In which of the following auctions do you think it is a good idea to do so, and in which of these auctions would you prefer to have a natural 2NT?

1. 1S - (2D) - 2NT?

2. 1H - (1S) - 2NT?

3. (1D) - 1H - (p) - 2NT?

4. (1D) - 1H - (2D) - 2NT?

5. (1S) - 2H - (p) - 2NT?

6. (1S) - 2H - (2S) - 2NT?

Maybe I'm missing some important auctions.

Although it was not the purpose of this thread, but if you have good ideas about what the best meaning of an artificial 2NT in these auctions is then I would enjoy hearing about it. Does anybody play transfers starting with 2NT in auction 6?

After partner has opened or overcalled a natural suit, I play 2N as a high card raise. Over a minor, however, the hand must have slam interest or be no-trump suitable.

[dake50]

Is 2NT intended as primary info bid or as the catchall? What hand types are already system scheduled? Which are left? Which other is catchall if not 2NT?