Unalerted polish 2C is cheating

[Ant590]

I just kibbed a tourney where the host broadcast that:

 

"automatic penalty when you open a Polish or Precision 2♣ with no alert... that is CHEATING!"

 

It is interesting that I find the use of this c-word far more offensive than the f in "wtf" discussion. While a polish 2♣ probably should be alerted (despite it being more natural than the standard 2♣), to call people that don't alert it cheats doesn't seem right to me.

[blackshoe]

1. message to TD: I don't play Polish Club, and I am not playing Precision today. I also don't play in tournaments where the TD accuses people, a priori, of cheating.

2. disconnect.

3. If I paid to play, I demand my money back. Not that I expect that will do me any good.

[matmat]

a glowing endorsement of the qualification and ethics of some of the TDs out there.

[jillybean]

Well it makes a change from the players accusing the other pair of cheating, TD is often called to investigate cheating when a bad auction results in a top board.

[hotShot]

I estimate that the ratio of cheating accusations on BBO to actual cases of intentional cheating is something like 10000(0) to 1.

Often these accusations come from people, who are totally unaware that they are using UI, unintentionally don't fully disclose their agreements, are unaware that signals and leads have to be disclosed too and don't even know that there are implicit partnership agreements. But they do know that psyching is evil and feel robbed if they don't make their high card trick because of a squeeze.

[helene_t]

In my experience, PC and Precision players usually alert their natural 2♣ openings while SA/SEF/etc players do not always alert their artificial 2♣ openings.

 

Anyway, agree with Blackshoe. It would be better if the TD focused on creating a pleasant atmosphere instead of such non-provoked cheating accusations.

[Codo]

Different countried different alert procdures. Here in Germany you do not need to alert 2 ♣ as long as it is strong and artifical, but you need to alert a prec. 2 Club opener. B)

 

For this actual TD: Crazy guy, no sense for atmosphere and behaviour.

[the hog]

1. message to TD: I don't play Polish Club, and I am not playing Precision today. I also don't play in tournaments where the TD accuses people, a priori, of cheating.

2. disconnect.

3. If I paid to play, I demand my money back. Not that I expect that will do me any good.

I totally agree with Blackshoe. Has this td been reported? (Actually I also find this more offensive than the wtf post, though that was extremely offensive as well.)

[jillybean]

I dont find this much worse than TD's who tell me I cant psyche in pos 1 and 2 :huh:

This TD needs educating rather than reporting, people make up rules like this when they dont understand the systems that are being used and/or the rules of the game.

 

But yes, I hate seeing people accusing others of cheating

[brianshark]

While the use of the word 'cheating' is a little extreme, the essense of the message, that people playing a natural 2♣ opening really really need to alert it, is sound.

 

It was just a poor choice of words. Aren't people over-reacting just a little?

[babalu1997]

I just kibbed a tourney where the host broadcast that:

 

"automatic penalty when you open a Polish or Precision 2♣ with no alert...

sometimes people do not alert their non natural 2club open, or 1 club open because in their country or local club evryone plays the same system, so they see no need to alert.

So sometimes it happens out of ignorance.

 

But those no information availabe thing does tick me off.

 

what i do is this, i inquire 1 club bids if the opps have no profile posted or have more than one system listed, and increasingly, i ask, before i make the first bid, what system they are playing.

 

As to tds, much headache could be avoided it the tds were to read the communications concerning games at bbo which are sent to evry td and are pinned in this forum.

[pclayton]

If someone told me to f*** off at the table, I wouldn't be that upset.

 

If someone told me I was a cheater, there would be retribution. It has happened once in real life (the guy got a ZT penalty on the spot, and later apologized) and once online (I counted a hand out and dropped a stiff King onside) and the guy thought I was wired.

 

In a weird kind of way, being accused of cheating can actually be a compliment.

 

TDs that make preemptive announcements like this don't understand their role.

[matmat]

This TD needs educating rather than reporting, people make up rules like this when they dont understand the systems that are being used and/or the rules of the game.

I disagree with this.

 

any TD that "needs educating" should NOT be a TD. with being a director comes the responsibility of knowing the laws, ethics and customs of the game. If they don't, there is no justification for them trying to run a tournament as a TD.

 

I understand occasional mistakes or errors on difficult rulings, but IMO, TDs should be held to a much higher standard, ethically, than any of the players.

 

wonton brandishings of the C word should not be acceptable when done by players, much less so by the TD.

[TimG]

(I counted a hand out and dropped a stiff King onside)

I wonder how mad the guy would have been if you'd done that when the king was offside?

[TimG]

any TD that "needs educating" should NOT be a TD.

I suspect that even the best directors will admit to needing some further education.

 

I think reporting the statement is the right thing to do...so that the director can be educated by the appropriate person. Attempting to educate the director yourself is unlikely to have good results.

[matmat]

I suspect that even the best directors will admit to needing some further education.

sure.

but there are certain basics that should not have to be pointed out. eg. calling someone a cheater when they forget/fail to alert a natural 2c bid.

[pclayton]

(I counted a hand out and dropped a stiff King onside)

I wonder how mad the guy would have been if you'd done that when the king was offside?

LOL I meant offside.

[jillybean]

This TD needs educating rather than reporting, people make up rules like this when they dont understand the systems that are being used and/or the rules of the game.

I disagree with this.

 

any TD that "needs educating" should NOT be a TD. with being a director comes the responsibility of knowing the laws, ethics and customs of the game. If they don't, there is no justification for them trying to run a tournament as a TD.

 

I understand occasional mistakes or errors on difficult rulings, but IMO, TDs should be held to a much higher standard, ethically, than any of the players.

 

wonton brandishings of the C word should not be acceptable when done by players, much less so by the TD.

I assume this was a free tournament on BBO? If so there is no requirement what so ever for the person running the tournament to know anything about the laws of DCB.

[matmat]

I assume this was a free tournament on BBO? If so there is no requirement what so ever for the person running the tournament to know anything about the laws of DCB.

I understand there is no requirement, I also think that it's unethical for someone who has no clue about something like directing a bridge game to mislead others into believing that they have a competent TD.

[jillybean]

I assume this was a free tournament on BBO? If so there is no requirement what so ever for the person running the tournament to know anything about the laws of DCB.

I understand there is no requirement, I also think that it's unethical for someone who has no clue about something like directing a bridge game to mislead others into believing that they have a competent TD.

Where is there evidence that this person is misleading anyone into thinking that he/she is a competent td?

 

"automatic penalty when you open a Polish or Precision 2♣ with no alert... "

is the typical type of 'rule' you'll hear in homegrown tourneys.

[matmat]

Where is there evidence that this person is misleading anyone into thinking that he/she is a competent td?

how about putting on the TD hat and parading in it?

[jillybean]

Where is there evidence that this person is misleading anyone into thinking that he/she is a competent td?

how about putting on the TD hat and parading in it?

Fair enough :P

[mr1303]

Why should a natural 2C opening have to be alerted? A 2C bid that could show any length in any suit isn't alertable, but a bid that shows length in the suit bid is?

 

I sometimes wonder who made up these rules...?

 

:P

[barmar]

Why should a natural 2C opening have to be alerted? A 2C bid that could show any length in any suit isn't alertable, but a bid that shows length in the suit bid is?

 

I sometimes wonder who made up these rules...?

 

:)

The purpose of alerts it to let the opponents know that you're making a bid they may not understand. If most players in a community use 2♣ as an artificial strong bid, any other meaning should be alerted in that community. It doesn't matter that the other meaning is natural, it's still highly unexpected.

 

There are some jurisdictions where the alerting rule is simply to alert all artificial bids. But many areas, such as ACBL territory, base their alerting rules on the common systems, as this fits in better with the purpose of alerting.

[the hog]

Why should a natural 2C opening have to be alerted? A 2C bid that could show any length in any suit isn't alertable, but a bid that shows length in the suit bid is?

 

I sometimes wonder who made up these rules...?

 

:)

I agree with this. If you are going tio have to alert a natural 2c opening, then you should alert ALL 2c openings.