Like it or lump it

[gnasher]

When someone asks you to stop using terms like this in an open forum to continue to do is just bad manners.

I can't see how anyone could disagree this. The essence of good manners is to avoid giving unnecessary offence.

 

I see absolutely no reason to stop using cursewords simply because it wilts somebody else's ears/eyes. that is their problem, not mine, they can choose to ignore my posts if they are so inclined.

That's just another way of saying that you reserve the right to be bad-mannered.

[Guest Jlall]

Justin let me ask you a question, would you use this language at dinner with your parents and grandmother or at a meeting with a new paying client?

This may be shocking to you...but...yes. I frequently say "let's beat the f*** out of them (the other team), or perhaps after a close loss I might say "f***" I have never had a client who has minded these words, maybe that is because people who hire young people do not usually mind such things (self selection) and use these words themselves. Also I frequently use "cuss words" when talking to my parents. When I was younger it was a big no-no and I remember getting in trouble for it, but as an adult or young adult they didn't really care and my dad sometimes uses those words himself. At the only job I ever had that wasn't bridge it seemed very common for people to cuss, even with their bosses, which I guess surprised me at the time.

 

Anyways, to be honest I don't think I really even know if I have ever said "wtf" on the forums, I probably have since I use it a lot on BBO and AIM chat, sorry if I have offended you. My thinking will always be based on what is the intent of the word since that is the logical way of thinking about it to me, but I guess I should be more respectful of the possibility that it offends others. It really never occurred to me that "wtf" used in a non malicious way may offend others, but I guess that is my bad.

[Guest Jlall]

BTW our fundamental difference I guess is here:

 

It is what it is, swear words, expletives, vulgarities designed to shock, offend and insult.

 

I dont think swear words are designed to offend and insult anyone, though they are sometimes used for that purpose. They do add shock value or emphasis, and that is a very valuable thing to be able to add. WTF is a very concise way to convey your thoughts and the emphasis of those thoughts as opposed to something like "That was exceptionally crazy!!" You can even add more to it with puncuation, such as WTF?! or WTF!!!! or W.T.F.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These are powerful things that we can use that imo should not be deemed offensive because there is no offensive intent.

 

And I always used to hear that only people who have poor vocabularies use these words, but that is silly to me. For starters, if no one were to be offended by these words that would give everyone a stronger vocabulary because we have more possible words to use, so we can better communicate our feelings and thoughts in a more concise manner. And secondly, since 90+ % of north america swears I think the point that people who do so have poor vocabularies can no longer be argued.

 

To be honest I understood the "balls" complaint way more than the "wtf" complaint.

[Codo]

Mat,

 

I do not agree with Rons last postings and with the words he choose in his first. But I think in his bottom line he is right:

 

It is in the responsibility of the writer/speaker to stop using words which are offensive to others.

 

So if someone has good manners, he will use this wtf while talking to you, Justin and millions of others who don`t care about it but won`t use it in an open bridge forum where are people of all ages.

 

And it is a simple truth that wording used by seniors may be lame, boring to the youth and words used from the teens are sometimes offensive for the ears of the "best-agers".

 

So it`s your choice to use a language which fits you well or a language which won`t offend anybody.

The latter way is called "good manners".

 

I am not the judge which way is the better one:

To have people talk the way they want is a great thing and leads to many nice posts.

To be respectful and have good manners is nice in itself, but sometimes boring.

 

My personal view is that I really don`t care about wtf, but it makes post not better if someone uses this expression. Actually I found it more funny to write "Do you have balls...". But anybody to his own.

[Guest Jlall]

When someone asks you to stop using terms like this in an open forum to continue to do is just bad manners.

I can't see how anyone could disagree this. The essence of good manners is to avoid giving unnecessary offence.

Yes, but at what cost? There must be some ratio where the utility of what you're giving up (wtf) to the amount of offence caused to the amount of people means you have to offend some people. This happens all the time, and often the people offended need to take ownership of it because it's their problem. I'm not trying to say that is the case with "wtf" but certainly if someone were to say they were offended by the suit hearts because their parents died of heart disease, or if someone were to say "don't use he as a generic, use he/she, because it is sexist and offends me" then people should not give up "hearts" or a generic he.

[david_c]

Just saw this which I thought was amusing:

 

Pupil gains marks for exam expletive

 

LONDON (Reuters) - A student who scribbled an expletive on an English language exam paper was awarded 7.5 percent for accurate spelling and effective communication, The Times newspaper reported on Monday.

 

The pupil, who wrote "f--- off" after being asked in an English exam to "describe the room you are sitting in", got 2 marks out of 27 and would have got more if he had added some punctuation, chief examiner Peter Buckroyd told The Times.

[helene_t]

Recently someone made a comment about "the way LOLs declare". That was an explicit offense of people of a particular sex, age and body size.

 

Not that I have problems with it, but it must surely be much worse than the use of a word which maybe originally was designed to insult but probably wasn't used with that intention in context. Or maybe "LOL" just means "bad bridge player" and has nothing to do with its literal meaning .....

 

I never understood these apparently strong emotions it elicits when someone makes a reference to human reproductive behavior and reproductive body parts. Like I don't understand people who find it ok that their children watch violence but not ok that they watch reproductive body parts.

 

OK it's just me, I know it's futile to argue that my taste is more "right" than that of any other person. Then again, if someone else assumes that his/her taste is the universal one I am not going to take it seriously either.

[rona_]

Here we go again

Each time I view forums lately, there is one post that stands out – What The Fuck partner

 

I was under the impression the WC was there for this type of language.  Obviously not, the moderators and site owners allow it and I’m in the tiny minority who object to it. How far can we go now?

If you object to it then why not use the abbreviated form and post it in the WC.

I have not seen it spelled out this way in forums, except in your post. Generally people write wtf, and somehow that doesn't seem offensive.

 

Agree with Helene's post.

[helene_t]

wonder what a future generation will do when they can't shock their parents by their language.

They will find some other way of shocking. Some of my classmates (30 years back) called each other "homosexuals", "negroids" or "left-handers" (or equivalent slang terms) instead of "idiots", especially in the presence of teachers known to be politically correct.

[gnasher]

Yes, but at what cost? There must be some ratio where the utility of what you're giving up (wtf) to the amount of offence caused to the amount of people means you have to offend some people. This happens all the time, and often the people offended need to take ownership of it because it's their problem. I'm not trying to say that is the case with "wtf" but certainly if someone were to say they were offended by the suit hearts because their parents died of heart disease, or if someone were to say "don't use he as a generic, use he/she, because it is sexist and offends me" then people should not give up "hearts" or a generic he.

Yes, I agree that good manners aren't absolute, and that one has to consider both the demands of efficient communication and how reasonable it is to be offended.

 

Personally, I don't find it hard to write "South's bidding was ridiculous" rather than "WTF ?", but I would find it hard to rephrase the sentence "East should have played a heart when he was in, and has only himself to blame." However, I realise that I'm just drawing a line somewhere different from where others draw it.

[bill1157]

whats the BFD anyway?

[655321]

whats the BFD anyway?

BFD

[TimG]

And I always used to hear that only people who have poor vocabularies use these words, but that is silly to me. For starters, if no one were to be offended by these words that would give everyone a stronger vocabulary because we have more possible words to use, so we can better communicate our feelings and thoughts in a more concise manner.

If spoken word for word, I would expect "wtf" to be a reaction to something injurious or causing affront. As in: "What the f*** did you do that for, a******?" "wtf" can also be an expression of confusion or frustration. As in: "what the f*** is going on here, it should be easy, but I just can't solve this puzzle." I'm sure there are shades of meaning in between -- shades that would be easier to understand in spoken form rather than written form.

 

When I read the thread title "WTF partner", it sounded to me like partner had done something wrong and the poster was upset. Upon reading the post (which I did not do until this thread was started) I think the poster simply was expressing confusion at the situation and not directing anything at partner.

 

In short, I don't think the use of "wtf" in this case was particularly helpful in expressing the poster's thoughts. I don't really know whether the poster meant a mild "I wasn't sure what this meant" or intended some ill-will towards partner "a good partner shouldn't put me in this position".

And secondly, since 90+ % of North Americans swear I think the point that people who do so have poor vocabularies can no longer be argued.

Can't 90+% of North Americans have a poor vocabulary? I suspect strongly that 90+% swearing is an overbid and that a significant portion of those that do swear limit the company in which they do swear. I think that those who swear are often not making best use of their vocabulary. I neither swear nor possess a good vocabulary, which leaves me severely limited; it would be a shock if anyone understood what I am talking about.

 

Back to the original use of "wtf". Some of us have heard a milder form of this expression: "what the freak". Just as there are miler forms of "f***ing" ("friggin", "freaking", or "frickin") and other swear words. I wonder whether Jilly would have been offended if the poster had written out "what the freak" or if someone used "frickin" in a post? If not, just imagine that "wtf" always means "what the freak".

[jillybean]

I do not understand why those who say this sort of language does not bother them but find reading WTF more acceptable than ‘what the *****’. I assume when you talk you don’t say W-T-F. Lets not fool ourselves, WTF is What The *****.

 

Yes WTF!!!!!!!!!!!! has impact and so for impact it would be ok for me to use “What sort of pr*ck would bid like this!!!!” or “What a **t of a hand!!!!”

My vocabulary is limited but I think I can still find interesting ways to deliver a message without using this type of language. I may have impact but I will also create negative impact and offend people. Isn’t this also why we don’t use references to race, religion or sexual preferences?

 

Yes I teach my daughter not to steal, kill, cheat or swear. She is a Cub in the local Scout group. In our unit Beavers (5-7) don’t swear at all, Cubs (8-10) occasionally use inappropriate language and are corrected by the leaders. I have heard a Scout (11-14) swear on a couple of occasions and surprise, its not the leaders who have corrected them but the other scouts. It’s only too late to stop if we let it.

 

I talk openly about human reproduction and body parts, I teach my daughter the grammatically correct verbs and nouns as well as the slang. I also tell her that some things are best kept private and that it is not appropriate to use these slang words.

 

Maybe it is just a phase most pass through. I found it a lot more acceptable when I was in my crazy 20’s but even then I would not have heard it outside of our small group and never in the presence of parents, bosses etc.

For me vulgarities are a little like sex, best kept private.

[TimG]

Beavers

When last in Montreal, I thought the Beaver Club was a strip joint...

[pclayton]

WTF is acceptable in all venues except perhaps a debutante's ball.

 

"*****" isn't. Nor is *****, piss, and the rest of Carlin's list. People do use the words, and moderation is the key.

 

I still freak out when my kids use the word. I use it myself sometimes around them, but I always apologize later when I do. Dad's only human. I have zero problem with dubya-tee-eff. Frankly, it shows they are being considerate by not cussing. I suppose when my kids have moved out of the house, so we are more on a 'peer' level, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it would still bother me a little, since a little self-restraint can curb the use of words like this.

[Elianna]

This thread has made me think even more. Wow. I wonder how many people see abbreviations, and read the abbreviation, and not what it stands for.

 

For myself, some abbreviations get automatically translated into their long version, but some don't. AIDS, DNA, UN, etc. don't get translated, but LOL (both ones), wtf, etc, etc... do. I guess expressions get translated but abbreviations don't? (By "translated" I mean that when I read them on a page, I read it as "laughing out loud" versus "dee en ay".

[y66]

For me, there's nothing inherently offensive in the word *****. I like its versatility. Maybe that's an Irish thing. Maybe not though. I'm not 100% Irish and I feel 100% comfortable using this word. In context, of course. If I'm not sure who I'm talking to, or if I know the person I'm talking to will take offense, I will generally avoid using this word.

 

I think wtf, like fubar, is different though, in terms of general expectations of offensiveness. It's more of a colloquialism than an expletive. I know people who would not use ***** at the dinner table who would not raise an eyebrow if someone used fubar to describe, say, the current state of leadership in the U.S., especially if they then had the good sense to change the subject.

 

I really like the freedom of expression in this forum and the generally prevailing attitude of respectful communication.

 

I also really like the clarity and economy of expressions like wtf?. I hope people do not stop using this expression.

 

BTW, according to John Ayto, editor of the Oxford Dictionary of Slang:

 

"... it would be too much to say that ***** doesn't offend anybody. It hasn't finished the journey yet to becoming a milk-and-water word. But its impact is diminishing at a rapid rate. Young people tend not to think of it as offensive at all."

 

p.s. Could Maya have chosen a more apt word in her answer to Miles' question in the movie Sideways?

 

Miles: Why do you like wine?

 

Maya: “ … I like to think about the life of wine, how it's a living thing. I like to think about what was going on the year the grapes were growing, how the sun was shining that summer or if it rained... what the weather was like. I think about all those people who tended and picked the grapes, and if it's an old wine, how many of them must be dead by now. I love how wine continues to evolve, how every time I open a bottle it's going to taste different than if I had opened it on any other day. Because a bottle of wine is actually alive -- it's constantly evolving and gaining complexity. That is, until it peaks -- like your '61 -- and begins its steady, inevitable decline. And it tastes so *****ing good.”

[pclayton]

Justin let me ask you a question, would you use this language at dinner with your parents and grandmother or at a meeting with a new paying client?

This may be shocking to you...but...yes. I frequently say "let's beat the f*** out of them (the other team), or perhaps after a close loss I might say "f***" I have never had a client who has minded these words, maybe that is because people who hire young people do not usually mind such things (self selection) and use these words themselves.

I've been around you with clients and I've never heard you use salty language. I have heard other young pros use R-rated language a lot, however.

 

Did the clients actually say they don't have a problem with this language or did you just assume they don't since they didn't bring it up? If your examples are the extent of the bad language, I think its within the acceptable boundaries of ANY professional-client relationship. For instance, if I were playing golf with a client, or anyone else I needed to impress (or not piss off (oops :) ) and bladed a shot OB, no one would care in the least if I said MF!!! They would greatly care if I turned my pitching wedge into a helicopter.

 

With my clients, the older they ACT, the less likely I am to use any bad language. I have an 83 year old that talks like a sailor, and its pretty friggin' funny. I have another who's her late 50's who I wouldn't dream of using the F-word around. I'd guess I would feel comfortable around most of my clients, since we feel comfortable around each other and are good friends.

 

I think its the rare individual nowadays that does not use any foul language.

[rogerclee]

In the context of the original thread, the WTF wasn't about "What the *****, how is my partner this dumb?!?!" but more of a sign of general frustration not particularly directed at anyone.

 

I am really confused as to how people can find this offensive. I agree that cursing is offensive if used in a certain way, but most of the time it's not.

 

By the way, these comments about how cursing is a sign of poor vocabulary or upbringings or whatever are hogwash.

[matmat]

It is in the responsibility of the writer/speaker to stop using words which are offensive to others.

I don't believe that it is at all. I think it is the responsibility of the reader to filter/avoid authors that would offend them, and the responsibility of the censors (*shudder*) to maintain some sort of a very broad and tolerant standard.

 

I think it is incredibly poor manners to tell others what to do in regards to behavior that has no scarring or detrimental effect on health or finances.

 

I think it is remarkably funny what people consider obscene and what is "acceptable." I enjoy watching sports from time to time -- it is a HUGE deal if anyone ever gives someone the finger, and, often the camera cuts away during arguments to avoid the lip-readers out there from being offended by seeing some of their favorite stars mouth one of the seven deadly words. yet, the same broadcasts will readily show the players blowing their nose without the benefit of a tissue, or spitting out flegm onto the field? Surely spreading bacteria should be more offensive than saying a rude word...

 

Similarly, in the US, I find it incredibly bad mannered for a waiter or waitress at a restaurant to interrupt my dinner conversation with friends to ask us how our food is? Seems like they're just asking for praise for the chef. I sometimes make it a point to list all the things i thought were wrong with the meal, including the frequent interruptions by the waiting staff. It also ticks me off when they keep asking if am done so they can whisk away my plate. Why is that considered proper manners/etiquette and cursing not?

 

i fear i might have gone on a rant-tangent :)

 

anyhow, point is this, you can change your views of someone based on their "manners," and you can change the degree to which you interact with them, but trying to change how they behave is poor form in its own right, it's just as disrespectful as what you think using coarse language is.

[matmat]

Here we go again

Each time I view forums lately, there is one post that stands out – What The Fuck partner

 

I was under the impression the WC was there for this type of language.  Obviously not, the moderators and site owners allow it and I’m in the tiny minority who object to it. How far can we go now?

Also, do you see the large button near the top-right of each post with the caption (!Report)?. It would probably work better from the standpoint of the moderators, if you clicked that to lodge your complaint about a particular post, rather than trying to convert others to your values.

[blackshoe]

My father never uttered an obscenity or profanity in my presence - until I was 25. it became clear then that he knew, probably had always known, the words, but chose not to use them. He could, nonetheless, make clear his disappointment with whatever stupid stunt I'd pulled this time, without obscenity or profanity and usually without raising his voice.

 

The most effective drill instructor I met in 20 years in the military had a talent for explaining the shortcomings of his charges in great and humiliating detail, all at a normal, often quiet (when he got quiet, you knew you'd really screwed up) voice level, and using words which demonstrated an extraordinary vocabulary. He could also "cuss a blue streak" when he deemed it appropriate (which as I recall it was never, in a training environment).

 

It is interesting that we come to equate uttering obscenities with uttering profanities (they are not the same thing) and both with "cursing", which is a different animal altogether. I've heard that Arabic is the best language for actual cursing, and given some of the sample translations I've heard, I can believe it. But the examples are true curses and don't involve obscenity or profanity at all.

[ArtK78]

I have been reading this thread with amazement. Primarily I am amazed that it has gone on for as long as it has in the manner that it has without being pulled by BBO Forum Management.

 

In the Terms of Service at the beginning of this Forum, the following are the introductory and first numbered paragraphs:

 

Welcome to the BridgeBase Forums! Before beginning to use our service, we ask that you read over our Terms of Service. To most people this should not be of tremendous concern but it is worth reviewing. By establishing an account with the BridgeBase Forums (BBF) you agree that:

 

1. You will not engage in conduct or post any material that is defamatory, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of ANY law. Doing any of these is a good way to find yourself barred from the forums. The board should never go above PG-rated for any reason.

 

I have been participating in these Fora for quite some time, and I have noticed a general decline in the standards of deportment (if you will) over the last six months or so. Not the least of the declines is the use of acronyms for totally unacceptable language, such as "WTF" and the like. I am somewhat surprised that it has gone on this long without comment. I am astonished that the objection to the language which began this thread set out the words signified by the acronym WTF in full and in bold type without any consequences (or at least none that I am aware of).

 

I am sure that all of us can express ourselves coherently and completely without the use of obscenities or substitutes for obscentities. Even I have used some, without spelling them out, when necessary. For instance, I made reference to the "Oh, s**t!" rule for strong 2 bids - if you open a hand one of a suit and it goes all pass, if your first thought is "Oh, s**t!" then you should have opened a strong 2 bid. I suppose I could have said "Oh, crap!" instead but I was actually quoting a prior post. And since there is a famous appeals case from a North American Championship which goes by this name, I thought that this phrase has actually become a part of the bridge lexicon.

 

My point is that we should be using this language less, not more, frequently, if at all, in these Fora. And the justification for the use of the language is just that - justification. It is not a reason to use it, and, in the face of the terms of service to which we have all agreed to, it just doesn't cut it.

[mr1303]

My 2p worth is that if the forums get blocked by my anti-porn blocker etc, then the language on there isn't appropriate. Bridge should be a family game, and therefore we should use language appropriate for a family setting.