Worth an overcall?

[Guest Jlall]

The whole "they have more space when you make a 1 up overcall" thing is nonsense since if you account for the times partner is able to bid because of your overcall they are losing space overall and it is not close. Yes, if partner were to automatically pass then have given them more room but luckily our bidding will often induce him to bid and take away their room.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Most likely I would pass, but mainly because the suit quality

is not good enough, give me AQxxx xxx xx xxx, and I overcall.

 

Spades will allow you to fight for the part score and if partner

raises, it will test their agreements.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[cherdano]

It is true that overcalling 1S over 1C is more preemptive. But when RHO has 5 hearts and you have 5 spades it is much more likely that your side has to compete in spades to reach par:

1. The opponents are more likely to have a fit in RHO's opening suit and also find it.

2. Even if they have and find a club fit after 1C, there are two more suits available in which we can compete at the same level over their club partial compared to their heart partial.

[the hog]

I would certainly bid 1S with this hand. cf Phil's reasons above.

[Codo]

I really hate these black/white statements. Of course Tim is right, many good things and many bad things may happen after you bid or pass.

 

And to claim just the pros for the overcall is shortsighted.

 

1. Of course reasonable opps will use the extra space you give them.

If you overcall 1 Spade, I do not need to bid 1 NT with all 6-9 HCPs hands, I can use the neg. double and NFBs to descirbe my hand much better.

 

2. Even if the hand belongs to the spade hands, many bad things may happen.

Even after a simple start with (1♥) 1♠ pass:

Pd may have a hard time to evaluate a hand like KQx, xxx,xxx,AQxx.

He will be quite surprised that 2 Spade is the limit. You will end up in many 3 Spade-1 for a 5 imps loss.

 

And this is just one example. If you play so wide ranging overcalls, other descissions in competetive bidding are hard for partner too. He does not know whether your overcalls have reasonable suits and or a minimum defensive value, or at least some shape. So if he does not have a great fit with you, he may be worse placed after your bid then after a pass.

 

As written before, I don't rate the 1 Spade bid wrong, I just think that we should share all possible aspects and not just the rosiest views about the overcall.

 

There are reasons why solid systems demand more then this for an overcall.

 

BTW: They just had the European championship. I did not notice that many of the pairs I watched did overcall with hands like ♠ATxxx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣K9x.

But I did not care too much about this issue, so maybe I am wrong here.

[joker_gib]

1♠ is clear for me

[rbforster]

And to claim just the pros for the overcall is shortsighted.

 

1. Of course reasonable opps will use the extra space you give them.

If you overcall 1 Spade, I do not need to bid 1 NT with all 6-9 HCPs hands, I can use the neg. double and NFBs to descirbe my hand much better.

 

2. Even if the hand belongs to the spade hands, many bad things may happen.

Even after a simple start with (1♥) 1♠ pass:

Pd may have a hard time to evaluate a hand like KQx, xxx,xxx,AQxx.

He will be quite surprised that 2 Spade is the limit.

I think the biggest gains for this overcall are getting partner off to a good lead and blocking the opponents' auction when partner with 3 card support can now raise to 2♠ frequently. Over a negative double or a pass, a 2♠ raise will put pressure on opener who may not have enough extras to bid freely at the 3 level.

 

I'm less worried about partner hanging me since his strongest bid is 2♥ (limit+) after which I'll bid 2♠ and if he bids again over that he'll have a good enough hand to justify it.

[awm]

The problem auction that comes up most frequently for bidding here is:

 

1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥ - ???

 

Now partner's 2♥ "cuebid" has been taken away. Suppose he has some limit raise style hand with only three trumps. His options are the underbid of 2♠ or forcing the three-level. While partner is surely aware of our overcalling tendencies, it is also the case that we do overcall on good hands, and opponents could easily be bidding on air in a fit auction. I have seen a 3♥ call opposite a hand much like this one lead to 3♠X for quite a number.

 

I've seen some people play that a double in this auction is a limit raise. This treatment helps on those hands while losing on the "responsive double" type hands.

[Trumpace]

<snip>

2. Even if the hand belongs to the spade hands, many bad things may happen.

Even after a simple start with (1♥) 1♠ pass:

Pd may have a hard time to evaluate a hand like KQx, xxx,xxx,AQxx.

He will be quite surprised that 2 Spade is the limit. You will end up in many 3 Spade-1 for a 5 imps loss.

 

<snip>

The scoring is Matchpoints.

[NickRW]

<snip>

2. Even if the hand belongs to the spade hands, many bad things may happen.

Even after a simple start with (1♥) 1♠ pass:

Pd may have a hard time to evaluate a hand like KQx, xxx,xxx,AQxx.

He will be quite surprised that 2 Spade is the limit. You will end up in many 3 Spade-1 for a 5 imps loss.

 

<snip>

The scoring is Matchpoints.

Yes. That may be a point that some missed. At MP auctions like 1♥-pass-2♥-all pass can occur and you're looking at -110 when you could have been +110 or likely no worse that -100. Or, even if opps are off for +50 or 100, you could have had +110 yourself. This is disastrous MP bridge. You've simply got to compete whenever possible, especially with spades. True you may miss the odd game through the use of wide ranging overcalls, but the frequency will be less than the times when you get a bad part score result by not competing. And it is frequency of gain that is the main thing in determining MP strategy.

 

At IMPs the case for overcalling is less clear - but I guess some still would.

 

Nick

[kenrexford]

Yes. That may be a point that some missed. At MP auctions like 1♥-pass-2♥-all pass can occur and you're looking at -110 when you could have been +110 or likely no worse that -100. Or, even if opps are off for +50 or 100, you could have had +110 yourself. This is disastrous MP bridge. You've simply got to compete whenever possible, especially with spades. True you may miss the odd game through the use of wide ranging overcalls, but the frequency will be less than the times when you get a bad part score result by not competing. And it is frequency of gain that is the main thing in determining MP strategy.

 

At IMPs the case for overcalling is less clear - but I guess some still would.

 

Nick

Excuse me, but white-v-red I think the auction of 1♥-P-2♥-P-P-? does not require a pass. A late 2♠ seems very reasonable.

[effervesce]

It's close, but I'd need the J of spades to overcall. Maybe even the T9 of spades will do at this vul.

[NickRW]

Excuse me, but white-v-red I think the auction of 1♥-P-2♥-P-P-? does not require a pass.  A late 2♠ seems very reasonable.

Yes, in this example you could play the hand that way.

 

The point I was trying to make is that you gotta get stuck in at MP. At IMPs a (slightly) more conservative style is OK in the interests of not making partner too worried about our overcalls and therefore keeping more options open for game.