Worth an overcall?

[TimG]

MP, white against red, you hold ♠ATxxx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣K9x. RHO opens 1♥, do you overcall 1♠?

[han]

Yes I would.

[rogerclee]

Yes.

[Guest Jlall]

Yes

[gwnn]

yes

[neilkaz]

SO SO important to bid ♠ over ♥ !! This is a bare min for me, and vul doesn't matter for me at the 1 level so I likely even if red o/c 1♠ and know players (not me) who do it n/v if the ♣K is a spot !!

[kenrexford]

No. Not even a close call.

 

Real close to a 2♠ overcall, though.

 

Because I'm so aggressive in overcalling 2♠, I like 1♠ to show a hand close to opening strength as a minimum.

[655321]

Yes, 1♠ always.

 

For the benefit of any beginner/intermediates reading this thread, 2♠ is a terrible bid with this hand. Change the hand to ♠KQJxx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣K9x and I would still overcall 1♠ instead of 2♠. But at least with the change in the suit, you could make some sort of case for 2♠.

 

Preempts on Ace empty suits are bad as a general rule. You have no tricks playing in your suit, and you have defensive tricks if the opponents buy the hand.

[andy_h]

Yes I would overcall 1S any day. Good things can happen, and let's get the hand off our chest while the auction is low.

[cjames]

Yes, a clear overcall for me.

[keylime]

1S in standard for me; 1NT 3 suited takeout with Larry. Backdooring one's way into the auction with this hand is not good bridge.

[kenrexford]

Yes, 1♠ always.

 

For the benefit of any beginner/intermediates reading this thread, 2♠ is a terrible bid with this hand. Change the hand to ♠KQJxx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣K9x and I would still overcall 1♠ instead of 2♠. But at least with the change in the suit, you could make some sort of case for 2♠.

 

Preempts on Ace empty suits are bad as a general rule. You have no tricks playing in your suit, and you have defensive tricks if the opponents buy the hand.

I agree 100% with the second portion. Switch the club King to the spade King (♠AK10xx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣xxx), and a 2♠ overcall is right, IMO. That's why this is so close.

 

I might even overcall 2♠ with ♠AJ1097 ♥xx ♦xxx ♣Kxx.

 

But, the spade suit quality is too poor for a 2♠ overcall.

 

Of course, if the spade suit quality is horrible, and the HCP count extremely low, and about 9+ losers, I don't get the merits of overcalling here, in the long run.

 

-When your suit quality is too low for the jump overcall, you don't have that exciting of a lead-director. Plus, you are less likely to be on lead anyway.

-When your overcall is +1, you preempt nothing and in fact help their auction (now they have a bid to show both minors and an easy limit raise and a known threat).

-When partner gets a chance to act or not act, he will tend to bid too much, or, if catering for this hand, will tend to bid too little.

-If LIA is part of the structure, the structure loses some interesting options because the danger is too high.

 

I used to play 0+ overcalls. I gave them up not because of the costs of getting hammered (rarely happened), but because I saw little point as far as real gains but a lot as far as real losses.

 

But, I seem to be in a solid minority of 1 again. LOL

[Codo]

Sorry for this minority view, but this is a clear pass.

 

You need to discuss the bottom line for an overcall.

You have 7 HCPs and a lousy 5233 shape, your partner is unlimited.

 

If you improve in bidding and have enough weapons in your arsenal to cater for so weak, normal, strong and very strong overcalls, you may set your limit quite low.

 

But I doubt that the limit should be so low in a BI forum. Better stick to the book bids for your overcalls for now and lower the limit later.

[TimG]

While I'm not surprised that some are overcalling, I am surprised that everyone is overcalling. (Even codo has qualified his pass as being for B/I -- when one advances then overcall with this.)

 

I wonder of someone with BridgeBrowser could search for 5233 hands with an Ace and a King (one of which is in spades) where there was a 1S overcall of 1H and see how the overcalling side scored.

[jdonn]

I think you just have to overcall on this, passing is ineffective.

[kenrexford]

While I'm not surprised that some are overcalling, I am surprised that everyone is overcalling. (Even codo has qualified his pass as being for B/I -- when one advances then overcall with this.)

 

I wonder of someone with BridgeBrowser could search for 5233 hands with an Ace and a King (one of which is in spades) where there was a 1S overcall of 1H and see how the overcalling side scored.

Now I'm down to a minority of 0 (or maybe 0.5)? God, I must suck! LOL

[TimG]

Well, you said it was real close to a jump overcall. After that, I dismissed the rest of what you said! :-)

[kenrexford]

Well, you said it was real close to a jump overcall. After that, I dismissed the rest of what you said! :-)

Yeah, but it wasn't close enough!

 

I mean, would you open a white-on-red 2♠ with this hand? No, but you'd certainly qualify this as too flawed for a 2♠ but not even close to a 1♠ opening.

 

Sure, this is different. Sorta.

[ArtK78]

Now I'm down to a minority of 0 (or maybe 0.5)?  God, I must suck!  LOL

 

Not quite that small a minority. I don't see the point of overcalling this mess. I pass.

[pclayton]

I overcall. I'd rather overcall TWO spades than pass.

[jtfanclub]

I think you just have to overcall on this, passing is ineffective.

Effective?

 

Overcalling 1♠ over 1♥ gives the opponents more space to play with, not less. It gives them all sorts of weapons that they didn't have before, like cue bids.

 

I like my one-ups to be stronger than this. For example, if the opening bid was 1♣, I wouldn't hesitate to bid 1♠, because there's considerable pre-emptive value.

 

I think bidding one-ups with crappy hands is more likely to help the opponents than help your side. The mitigating factor is that you do have an ace and a king, which usually end up taking a lot more tricks than random queens and jacks.

 

I'd advise pass. If you're my partner, and you pass with this, I'm happy. If you're my partner, and I bid 1♠ with this, I disavow any knowledge of this post.

[pclayton]

I think you just have to overcall on this, passing is ineffective.

Effective?

 

Overcalling 1♠ over 1♥ gives the opponents more space to play with, not less. It gives them all sorts of weapons that they didn't have before, like cue bids.

 

I like my one-ups to be stronger than this. For example, if the opening bid was 1♣, I wouldn't hesitate to bid 1♠, because there's considerable pre-emptive value.

 

I think bidding one-ups with crappy hands is more likely to help the opponents than help your side. The mitigating factor is that you do have an ace and a king, which usually end up taking a lot more tricks than random queens and jacks.

 

I'd advise pass. If you're my partner, and you pass with this, I'm happy. If you're my partner, and I bid 1♠ with this, I disavow any knowledge of this post.

You are looking at this from a linear perspective.

 

There are many, many good things that can and do happen when you overcall on hands like this. Here's just a few:

 

--Partner makes a preemptive raise and they miss 3N, or overbid to game.

--Pard gets off to the right lead against 3N.

--Pard has a really good hand and can now compete over 1N on your left, but if you pass, pard will pass.

 

I remember reading about Kleinman's whole 'undercall' philosophy, but I think thats losing bridge. You have a higher ranking suit - get in there and bid it.

 

By the way, an overcall gives them LESS weapons, not more. Unless they play 'systems on' over a 1♠ call, you've taken away their normal raise structure. Now, LHO has to cue bid with a limit raise or better (some play 2N, I know). You've taken away their forcing NT. Their 2/1 auctions are geared to be competitive, not GF.

 

You get in return a negative double and some fit bids. All of these anticipate further action. If fit bids were so effective, people would play them in 1M - 3m. They are great (and necessary) in comp, since frequently the auction is at the four level in the 1st round.

 

I love it when my opponents pass these hands.

[jtfanclub]

You are looking at this from a linear perspective.

 

There are many, many good things that can and do happen when you overcall on hands like this. Here's just a few:

 

--Partner makes a preemptive raise and they miss 3N, or overbid to game.

--Pard gets off to the right lead against 3N.

--Pard has a really good hand and can now compete over 1N on your left, but if you pass, pard will pass.

But all the bad things can happen too which I didn't mention, like partner competing over 1NT thinking you have a good hand, when in fact you've got 7 hcp, or leading a spade when in fact he's got a suit that's a whole lot easier to develop.

 

I don't really want to debate this, since I'm guilty of bidding 1♠ with this myself sometimes. But there are certainly experts and books that advocate passing with this, and I wanted to mention the reasons why.

 

I didn't catch your edit in time. If your opponents don't know how to use the extra space from a one-up bid, well, that's a good reason to bid 1♠. But it does give them extra room, and certainly some people know how to use it.

[pclayton]

You are looking at this from a linear perspective.

 

There are many, many good things that can and do happen when you overcall on hands like this. Here's just a few:

 

--Partner makes a preemptive raise and they miss 3N, or overbid to game.

--Pard gets off to the right lead against 3N.

--Pard has a really good hand and can now compete over 1N on your left, but if you pass, pard will pass.

But all the bad things can happen too which I didn't mention, like partner competing over 1NT thinking you have a good hand, when in fact you've got 7 hcp, or leading a spade when in fact he's got a suit that's a whole lot easier to develop.

My partners don't do this, and yours shouldn't either if an overcall can include hands like this.

 

I don't really want to debate this, since I'm guilty of bidding 1♠ with this myself sometimes.  But there are certainly experts and books that advocate passing with this, and I wanted to mention the reasons why.

 

I didn't catch your edit in time.  If your opponents don't know how to use the extra space from a one-up bid, well, that's a good reason to bid 1♠.  But it does give them extra room, and certainly some people know how to use it.

 

Yes, I edited this after the fact. Sorry.

 

The only meaningful bid they gain is a negative double. They also lose a natural 1♠ response. I see this as a wash. If the bidding started (1♣) and we were debating the merits of 1♦ on a similar type hand, I would be more inclined to agree.

 

Nearly every single partnership I know of uses nothing special over 1♥ - (1♠). Their bidding basically reverts to 1950's standard with a non-forcing 1N and a 10+ 2/1. Some partnerships use NFB's, but these have serious trade-offs. Things like "Switch" will become more common in auctions like this I think.

[TimG]

There are many, many good things that can and do happen when you overcall on hands like this. Here's just a few:

 

--Partner makes a preemptive raise and they miss 3N, or overbid to game.

--Pard gets off to the right lead against 3N.

--Pard has a really good hand and can now compete over 1N on your left, but if you pass, pard will pass.

Bad things can, and do, happen when you make overcalls such as these. In order to do a thorough study of this one would have to consider implications on auction that don't start with an overcall - it's probably impossible to consider everything. The good might outweigh the bad, but I think it is much closer than you make it out to be. And, I don't think either camp can prove their case.