Walddk Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Francesco Angelini is no longer in Pau. He has left the Italian camp and is back in Rome. As most of you will have noticed, Angelini-Sementa were benched for 7 of the 8 first matches in RR2 (one can understand why after their poor performance in RR1). A most reliable source tells me that his team members had criticised Angelini's poor play. Whether that was a good idea or not is not for me to say, but Angelini left the venue in disgust and returned to Italy. Officially due to business commitments, unofficially .... well, you know now. As a result, the Italians have been playing 5-handed for two days. Sementa played two matches with Versace. My source also reveals that Ms. Lavazza now regrets that she dumped Fantoni-Nunes in favour of Angelini-Sementa. He has read it on some Italian website. Unfortunately I don't have a link, so until proven this is only hearsay. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Well, this isn't very surprising. You and others made comments in another thread about the Italians effectively travelling with 2.5 pairs - also the political nature of the selection. They really only have themselves to blame. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcLight Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 > Fantoni-Nunes in favour of Angelini-Sementa. I dont know much (anything) about professional bridge teams. Why was Fantnues not selected in favor of thes etwo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 My source also reveals that Ms. Lavazza now regrets that she dumped Fantoni-Nunes in favour of Angelini-Sementa. He has read it on some Italian website. Unfortunately I don't have a link, so until proven this is only hearsay. Maybe this has been explained elsewhere and I missed it, but why do the Italians appear to have both a team selected through a political process as opposed to pairs or teams trials, and have as the person doing the selecting someone whose main qualification appears to be family money and not experience in high-level bridge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQJVSOh7cEc...feature=related Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianshark Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Easy to criticise the selection process now that they are not doing so well. But the fact is, Mme Lavazza and her money has selected pretty damn succesful Italian teams for years now. There was always going to be a reshuffle of the team because of Bocchi and Duboin's imminent split (imo the strongest pair of the Italian team) and because it was felt the team needed a reshuffle anyway. So what if the first attempt didn't work out? Hardly a crime to give Sementa-Angelini a try. Assuming the Italians don't claw back their 20 imp deficit in the last 4 matches, I'm pretty sure once the squad becomes Duboin-Sementa, Fontoni-Nunes, Versace-Lauria, they will go back to winning easily and often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cicus Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Easy to criticise the selection process now that they are not doing so well. But the fact is, Mme Lavazza and her money has selected pretty damn succesful Italian teams for years now. There was always going to be a reshuffle of the team because of Bocchi and Duboin's imminent split (imo the strongest pair of the Italian team) and because it was felt the team needed a reshuffle anyway. So what if the first attempt didn't work out? Hardly a crime to give Sementa-Angelini a try. Assuming the Italians don't claw back their 20 imp deficit in the last 4 matches, I'm pretty sure once the squad becomes Duboin-Sementa, Fontoni-Nunes, Versace-Lauria, they will go back to winning easily and often.I am pretty sure this lineup is not going to occur. As I read in an interview, signora Lavazza said she was sure Fantoni-Nunes will return to the Italian team. In my interpretation this is equivalent to claiming that 'as long as I'm alive, Fantoni and Nunes will never play for Italy again'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theli Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 why are you saying that?is there a precedent? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cicus Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 why are you saying that?is there a precedent? thanks This is politican's vocabulary. 'I am sure they will etc.' always means 'They will never etc.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Great, we complain when people who aren't world-class bridge players but have lots of money buy themselves championships/world-class competition, we ask "why can't there be more Ira Corns and C.C. Weis" (although it seems that Ira needed to be let down gracefully, but as I refuse to give the author of that book anything, I'll have to borrow it to find out for sure), and now we get on the back of the one, shining example of real sponsorship? The Golden Rule will always apply, yes. OTOH, if she who has the gold makes repeated bad decisions, a different patron would be sought - and in Italy, probably found. However, she has a track record of making better decisions than most of the world... We only know half the story, and (I'm sure) about one-tenth of the politics. No matter what got Sementa-Angelini on the team, it's going to take a lot of proven form for Mr. Angelini to get back. And isn't that what should happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcaramazza Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Easy to criticise the selection process now that they are not doing so well. But the fact is, Mme Lavazza and her money has selected pretty damn succesful Italian teams for years now. There was always going to be a reshuffle of the team because of Bocchi and Duboin's imminent split (imo the strongest pair of the Italian team) and because it was felt the team needed a reshuffle anyway. So what if the first attempt didn't work out? Hardly a crime to give Sementa-Angelini a try. Assuming the Italians don't claw back their 20 imp deficit in the last 4 matches, I'm pretty sure once the squad becomes Duboin-Sementa, Fontoni-Nunes, Versace-Lauria, they will go back to winning easily and often. This is my first post but please allow me to strongly disagree.As an Italian living abroad I am really sick of yet another stupid Italian commedy (or melodrama).The Italian bridge team has won I believe 8 European championship in a row head and shoulders above anybody else, to the point where in several occasions there was no point in playing the last to days of the event. It was together with Valentino Rossi one of the reason to be proud of Italy.So what happens next? MT Lavazza (if it was really her decision) decides to dump what in my opinion is the best pair in Europe (many would disagree and it is difficult to pick a best pair against such champions as BD and LV, but in my opinion Fantunes are the best) to insert a guy who is a very big sponsor in Italian bridge, but certainly is not amongst the top 500 players in Italy.It would be as if Berlusconi decided to play center half in the Italian footbell team because he sponsors Milan AC (mind you it could have been better than the way Toni performed).When you say that MT Lavazza has chosen winning teams in the past, that was hardly a difficult task, given that Italy has the three best pairs in Europe. What is extremely remarkable from her is to have managed to struggle in the European championship by making this joke of a choice.Maybe be next time we could have an interesting pair Angelini-Lavazza if women will be allowed, since apparently the Italian Bridge Federation is in such bad financial shape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Perhaps someone in the know can tell us the true facts of how the Italian team is chosen for this event. "since apparently the Italian Bridge Federation is in such bad financial shape " If one lady is given all the power one can only ask why the dues paying membership prefer it this way. If the membership is not paying the bills and this lady is, I agree she should get to pick whoever she wants for whatever reasons she wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Maybe be next time we could have an interesting pair Angelini-Lavazza if women will be allowed, since apparently the Italian Bridge Federation is in such bad financial shape Silly question: Here in the US we normally have Open events and Women's events. Women have the option to play in the Open events, however, men can't play in the Women's events. I know that many International Events use a similar format (Recall Rose Meltzer). Does the European Team's championships use a different format? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Does the European Team's championships use a different format? No, but very few women play in the "Open" event. Doris Fischer from Austria is one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 If one lady is given all the power one can only ask why the dues paying membership prefer it this way. If the membership is not paying the bills and this lady is, I agree she should get to pick whoever she wants for whatever reasons she wants.I'm not Italian so it's not really my problem, but I could not disagree with this statement more strongly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 If one lady is given all the power one can only ask why the dues paying membership prefer it this way. If the membership is not paying the bills and this lady is, I agree she should get to pick whoever she wants for whatever reasons she wants.I'm not Italian so it's not really my problem, but I could not disagree with this statement more strongly Not sure what you disagree with. My question of what power she has been given? What bills she pays? My question what the membership has actually done? Which of these do you disagree with? Or do you disagree with my premise if she pays for everything and is granted unlimited power she should not use it? If, I repeat if, they give her all the power and if she pays the bills what the heck do you expect her to do? It is naive to keep expecting her to do what you want or what you think it best for her to do. Of course I asked what the true facts are so who knows what power she was given or what she pays. Again I think it is naive at best to think someone is going to keep paying the bills but do what you want or think is best if she strongly disagrees with you as you strongly disagree with me. :) Bottom line it would be nice to know the full facts on who pays what and how the selection is made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcaramazza Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 If one lady is given all the power one can only ask why the dues paying membership prefer it this way. If the membership is not paying the bills and this lady is, I agree she should get to pick whoever she wants for whatever reasons she wants. I agree entirely in the case of a club competition. The sponsor chooses his/her team and nothing wrong with that.In the European club cup Laavazza and Angelini are the sponsors for two Italian team who have won most of the titles. Mr Angelini has played in one of them along Lauria, Versace and Fantunes. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.But in this case we are talking about national teams: the team is called Italy and represents the Italian nation, so every efforts should be made to to field the best possible Italian players. Mistakes in selection can obviously happen, but in this case nodody in the know doubts that Fantoni-Nunes are totally in another league and that Mrs Lavazza was certainly not trying to put together the best team.This team should simply not be named Italy in my opinion.I also would like to know how the team was really chosen, alll I can say is that the whole thing sounds like a big joke to me and not a pleasant one.I am sure that the two Italian main pairs agree with most of the above, but they simply cannot say anything about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 I am not Italian - but if I were I think I would be agreeing with you. To what extent do other nations have similar problems? Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcaramazza Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 I am not Italian - but if I were I think I would be agreeing with you. To what extent do other nations have similar problems? Nick Thanks for sympatising.I don't think I have ever seen anything like that in any other team, nor in the Italian team either in the past. That is why I find the whole thing so crazy.BTW I believe most of the poster here are from America, where things work in a very different way. Please allow me to remind that here in old Europe the concept of nation is quite a big deal: when you represent your own national country money should not be involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 "But in this case we are talking about national teams: the team is called Italy and represents the Italian nation, so every efforts should be made to to field the best possible Italian players." "BTW I believe most of the poster here are from America, where things work in a very different way. Please allow me to remind that here in old Europe the concept of nation is quite a big deal: when you represent your own national country money should not be involved. " You say money should not be involved but just based on this thread, and again no one is stating what the exact true facts are, it seems money is in fact the most important issue in Italy.In this thread it has been suggested that every effort by the membership has NOT been made to field the best possible Italian players. If the membership does not make every effort why should she? I think you guys are missing the main point in my posts. 1) Most important we need to know the facts of who is paying what and what powers have been delegated.2) In my premise based just on posts from this thread, if the dues paying membership has abdicated all the bills for this event and abdicated all powers..not some...all to just one person it is the membership who is to blame not this one person. It is extremely naive to assume to give all this power to one person and then be shocked that she picks one teammate that posters say is not in the top 500 players in the country. If the dues paying membership and the leadership it votes in to lead the federation gives up the responsibility, why blame her?3) Again it would be nice to have more facts, then just guesses, on who pays what and who has been given the power to pick the team but bottom line the membership must take full responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sceptic Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Someone has to cover the costs of it, if the governing body are not in a financial position to do it, then they have to ask themselves why not? and then they have to ask how do we fund it, maybe the lady in question provides the money, but no one is that generous with out being in a position to influence things and usually they do call the shots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cicus Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Easy to criticise the selection process now that they are not doing so well. But the fact is, Mme Lavazza and her money has selected pretty damn succesful Italian teams for years now. There was always going to be a reshuffle of the team because of Bocchi and Duboin's imminent split (imo the strongest pair of the Italian team) and because it was felt the team needed a reshuffle anyway. So what if the first attempt didn't work out? Hardly a crime to give Sementa-Angelini a try. Assuming the Italians don't claw back their 20 imp deficit in the last 4 matches, I'm pretty sure once the squad becomes Duboin-Sementa, Fontoni-Nunes, Versace-Lauria, they will go back to winning easily and often.I am pretty sure this lineup is not going to occur. As I read in an interview, signora Lavazza said she was sure Fantoni-Nunes will return to the Italian team. In my interpretation this is equivalent to claiming that 'as long as I'm alive, Fantoni and Nunes will never play for Italy again'.To make it clear for you what I am talking about, here is a link to the Lavazza interview. http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Re...6/msg00046.html If Bocchi and Duboin intended to part with each other why did Lavazza not discarded them in favour of Fantoni-Nunes? Because, it seems clear to me, her only goal was to get rid of Fantoni-Nunes. And then why would she want to take them back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted June 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 ... it seems clear to me, her only goal was to get rid of Fantoni-Nunes. And then why would she want to take them back? I don't think she has a choice now. First time since 1993 that Italy hasn't been on the podium. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 ... it seems clear to me, her only goal was to get rid of Fantoni-Nunes. And then why would she want to take them back? I don't think she has a choice now. First time since 1993 that Italy hasn't been on the podium. Roland Versace - LauriaDuboin - SementaBocchi - Madala gives a choice, but of course depends on when Madala meets the residency requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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