Very weird ATB...

[Guest Jlall]

[hv=v=b&n=sakxxhakqxxxdaqcx&s=shxdktxxxxxcat9xx]133|200|[/hv]

 

4S opener by west. NORTH (the heart hand) overcalled 4N. South bid 5S. North bid 7H.

 

North was going to bid 4N followed by 5H to show a strong 5H bid. NS are experts with no agreements.

 

Assign the blame, and how do you think the auction should go?

[jdonn]

I blame north for employing this strategy. I hate bids that could show either of two different types of hands, I think this sort of thing happens in unforeseen ways all the time and the theoreticians just don't give the possibility enough credit.

[xcurt]

For the actual result, N gets almost all the blame for leaping all the way to 7H. Was 5S supposed to promise the CA, enough trumps to avoid losing a trick to East's potential Jxxx or Qxx, and parking places for the DQ and the two losing spades? That's a huge parlay even without factoring in that North knows South bid 5S thinking North was coming with at least one minor.

 

I also don't like North's strategy because even if it comes off how is South supposed to know what he needs to raise? Sx could be bad because East may be void, the CK may be useless unless partner has an entry, etc.

 

On the other hand I don't like starting with double hoping to bid 5H because that might well make if west has QJT98xx, --, x, 5solid.

 

I guess in practice I would bid a simple 5H on the N hand, which I think is a mild underbid. That probably leads to 5H making unless South is a hero and bids 6D.

[pclayton]

North gets the charge. When South presses to slam with 5♠ (showing 1st round control), North should be aware that 4N is usually two places to play, and not the heavy hand with hearts, and as a result, South very likely has a distributional hand with both minors, expecting to hit one.

 

If North bids 6♥, North will send the right picture about his hand type. South will be temporarily perplexed, but will read the situation and pass.

[655321]

Add me to the blame North for everything faction. I also don't like the basic approach (pretend to hold a 2-suiter then spring out of the bushes with my real hand later), and also don't like the 7♥ bid.

 

I don't mind double (takeout) followed by 5♥ if it doesn't go all pass. Even a jump to 6♥ seems OK to me.

 

On the other hand I don't like starting with double hoping to bid 5H because that might well make if west has QJT98xx, --, x, 5solid.

 

 

Hmm. But 5♥X won't make if east has --,JT9876,KJx,AKQJ. Life is tough! :)

[Cascade]

I blame north for employing this strategy. I hate bids that could show either of two different types of hands, I think this sort of thing happens in unforeseen ways all the time and the theoreticians just don't give the possibility enough credit.

And the effect is much stronger when there is little room to resolve the ambiguity.

[gnasher]

Bidding 4NT hoping to be able to convert clubs to hearts is OK if you're happy to revert to hearts regardless of what level partner drives you to. It works fine after, for example, (4♠) dbl (pass).

 

However, I think this tactic should be employed only when there isn't a reasonable alternative. Here, with a strong 1-suiter in hearts, you can make a takeout double and follow with 5♥. North should do that. I don't understand the suggestion that this might lead to defending 4♠x.

 

With the actual auction, North-South would have survived if North hadn't panicked over 5♠. If 4NT includes this hand-type, then that's what 6♥ shows. In fact, I can't think of any other sensible meaning for it.

 

6♥ is a good contract, even given the opening. On a club lead it needs hearts 3-3 or diamonds coming in. On a non-club lead it's much better than that.

[Guest Jlall]

However, I think this tactic should be employed only when there isn't a reasonable alternative. Here, with a strong 1-suiter in hearts, you can make a takeout double and follow with 5♥. North should do that. I don't understand the suggestion that this might lead to defending 4♠x.

I suppose you meant with this particular strong 1 suiter in hearts you can X (since you have such good spades that you're not worried if partner passes your X). Obviously most such very strong 1 suiters couldn't risk a X.

 

Does X then 5H show specifically a hand too strong to overcall 5H though? I really wouldn't have thought so.

[gnasher]

I suppose you meant with this particular strong 1 suiter in hearts you can X (since you have such good spades that you're not worried if partner passes your X). Obviously most such very strong 1 suiters couldn't risk a X.

Yes, that's what I should have said (even if it's not what I meant at the time :)). In fact, with this hand I think it impossible that partner will pass it out.

 

You're right that a strong one-suiter with short spades poses more of a problem. With that hand-type, following the 4NT-then-5H route is more likely to be workable - if partner gets excited, at least his high cards will be opposite your side suits rather than your side-suit shortages. It would be nice to have an agreement about this before springing it upon partner, but I suppose it can't mean anything else.

 

Does X then 5H show specifically a hand too strong to overcall 5H though? I really wouldn't have thought so.

Perhaps it depends on what partner does. If he bids 4NT, presumably 5♥ shows this hand. Are you saying that 5♥ over 5m might be a 6-4 where you planned to pass the other minor?

[Guest Jlall]

Are you saying that 5♥ over 5m might be a 6-4 where you planned to pass the other minor?

Yep. Of course you have the same problem if you overcall 4N and partner bids 5D (5H can just bid clubs and hearts).

 

In fact, with this hand I think it impossible that partner will pass it out.

 

I would expect partner to pass with a 1444 yarborough or w/e. I guess you have a disfferent expectation, but I always learned that if you bid it should be with the hope of making since you are supposed to assume partner can beat them, and even if he can't beat them you might just go for a big number by bidding, and that way partner can bid slam sometimes.

[gnasher]

So:

- 4NT gains over double when partner has longer clubs than diamonds, or when partner was going to pass out a takeout double.

- Double gains over 4NT when partner has 5 diamonds and 4 clubs, or has 4 hearts and a 4+ card minor.

 

The hands where double gains seem less frequent, so I think you've persuaded me that 4NT is the right bid, both with the actual hand and with a strong heart one-suiter in general.

[nige1]

Dealer: ????? Vul: Both Scoring: Unknown

♠ AKxx ♥ AKQxxx ♦ AQ ♣ x ♠ [space] ♥ x ♦ KTxxxxx ♣ AT9xx

4S opener by west. NORTH (the heart hand) overcalled 4N. South bid 5S. North bid 7H.   North was going to bid 4N followed by 5H to show a strong 5H bid. NS are experts with no agreements.   Assign the blame, and how do you think the auction should go?

Just to be different: North 30% South 70%. IMO...

• Over 4N, South should bid 5N.
  
• over 7♥ South should bid 7N.
  

[nige1]

Dealer: ????? Vul: Both Scoring: Unknown

♠ AKxx ♥ AKQxxx ♦ AQ ♣ x ♠ [space] ♥ x ♦ KTxxxxx ♣ AT9xx

4S opener by west. NORTH (the heart hand) overcalled 4N. South bid 5S. North bid 7H.   North was going to bid 4N followed by 5H to show a strong 5H bid. NS are experts with no agreements.   Assign the blame, and how do you think the auction should go?

Just to be different: North 30% South 70%. IMO...

• Over 4N, South should bid 5N.
  
• over 7♥, South should bid 7N.
  

[Guest Jlall]

I was south on this hand FWIW. I thought partner should just bid 6H over 5S.

[ArtK78]

A 7NT bid on the South hand over 7♥ is the kind of bid that results in 7NTx down 8 or more tricks. North has a singleton or void in spades along with 10 solid hearts.

 

Really, the only excuse for bidding 7NT on the South cards is that he sees North's hand.

[kenrexford]

I was south on this hand FWIW. I thought partner should just bid 6H over 5S.

I think you are right about what North should do. If partner was expecting that 5♥ after you bid 5minor shows this hand, then 6♥ after 5♠ shows this hand.

 

That said, I think you have to take a charge here as well. Although you were placed in a ridiculous situation, how can passing be right? What hand must partner have where he bids the grand without the spade Ace? You know that something is screwy here, but that huge diamond suit and the small stiff heart suggests that 7NT might result in the same score but might not, as in this very situation.

 

Granted, a club lead kills your hope of diamonds being anything but 4-0, but you still make if diamonds are 2-2 or if the Jack is stiff.

[Guest Jlall]

I was south on this hand FWIW. I thought partner should just bid 6H over 5S.

I think you are right about what North should do. If partner was expecting that 5♥ after you bid 5minor shows this hand, then 6♥ after 5♠ shows this hand.

 

That said, I think you have to take a charge here as well. Although you were placed in a ridiculous situation, how can passing be right? What hand must partner have where he bids the grand without the spade Ace? You know that something is screwy here, but that huge diamond suit and the small stiff heart suggests that 7NT might result in the same score but might not, as in this very situation.

 

Granted, a club lead kills your hope of diamonds being anything but 4-0, but you still make if diamonds are 2-2 or if the Jack is stiff.

Huh? I showed a first round spade control (5S rather than 5N), so partner can easily bid 7H without the ace of spades. In fact, since partner upgraded his hand from 6H to 7H (he obviously had an original 4N..5H hand type), I figured that my 5S bid really turned him on (hence a hand that does NOT have the spade ace), ie Kxx AKQJxxxx AQx --- or something along those lines.

[kenrexford]

I suppose that's possible, even if it seems bizarre. But, we know that the auction is bizarre, so I guess you did have a problem.

[Guest Jlall]

The funny thing is 7N would get a killing club lead because spades are 9-0 and partner's 4N put the spade void on lead. They found the club lead against 7H too which is equally annoying.

[hrothgar]

Hmmm

 

This brings back memories of an earlier thread

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=25330&hl=

 

I advocated a similar bidding plan (Use a bid that ostensibly shows a two suited patter with a single suited hand). Since my earlier scheme couldn't possible be flawed I'll need to blame the card gods who just happened to deal a hand which exposed a kink in the system.

 

On a more serious note: I think that North needs to accept the charge. If you decide to operate and it goes badly you accept responsibility and hope that partner is gracious. For what its owrth, I think that South was a little aggressive, but that strike me as nit picking.

[han]

I don't think that there was any need for 4NT on this particular hand. North should just double and see if there is something sensible that can be done.

[xcurt]

I don't mind double (takeout) followed by 5♥ if it doesn't go all pass.  Even a jump to 6♥ seems OK to me.

Just jumping to 6♥ is reasonable. It was the other call I considered.

 

Seriously isn't there a huge risk partner is passing a takeout double. Partner is most likely looking at a three-suiter short in spades and he knows that three suiters with duplicated shortness don't play well. He will pass with all sorts of marginal hands and whenever those marginal hands have 4 hearts in them we probably want to be in slam (x, xxxx, xxxx, Kxxx needs the CA onside and 2-1 hearts to make 6♥). Since there's downside risk and not much upside (since partner won't really know what cards are good after, say, 4S-x-P-4N; P-5H-P-? why not pick a level. At least we won't wind up in a silly strain.

[655321]

I don't mind double (takeout) followed by 5♥ if it doesn't go all pass.  Even a jump to 6♥ seems OK to me.

Just jumping to 6♥ is reasonable. It was the other call I considered.

 

Seriously isn't there a huge risk partner is passing a takeout double. Partner is most likely looking at a three-suiter short in spades and he knows that three suiters with duplicated shortness don't play well. He will pass with all sorts of marginal hands and whenever those marginal hands have 4 hearts in them we probably want to be in slam (x, xxxx, xxxx, Kxxx needs the CA onside and 2-1 hearts to make 6♥). Since there's downside risk and not much upside (since partner won't really know what cards are good after, say, 4S-x-P-4N; P-5H-P-? why not pick a level. At least we won't wind up in a silly strain.

Yep, fair enough. Although I don't share this concern (partner will often have a suit to bid, or if he passes 4♠X may well be our best spot) I agree you can make a reasonable case against doubling.

 

My original comment was in response to your worry that partner would be passing the double when 4♠X is cold. I just felt that this was so unlikely as not to be a factor in deciding what to bid over 4♠.

[gnasher]

I don't think that there was any need for 4NT on this particular hand. North should just double and see if there is something sensible that can be done.

So what about Justin's argument that 4NT increases the chances that you'll be able to show your hand on the next round, because

  4♠ 4NT pass 5♣

  5♥

is a slam try, but

  4♠ dbl pass 5♣

  5♥

is not?

[sathyab]

I don't think that there was any need for 4NT on this particular hand. North should just double and see if there is something sensible that can be done.

So what about Justin's argument that 4NT increases the chances that you'll be able to show your hand on the next round, because

  4♠ 4NT pass 5♣

  5♥

is a slam try, but

  4♠ dbl pass 5♣

  5♥

is not?

It's almost as if you're treating the 4nt and X over 4s as a relay to 5c ! What if he bids 5d instead, because 4nt appeared as a take-out in the minors ? What would 5h mean then ?