han Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 10xx KQJ87x - A9xx You are playing precision and open 1H. The bidding continues: 1H - 2D2H - 2S3H - 3S4H - 5C... What are your thoughts about 3H and 4H? What's partner doing and what is your call now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 I think p is 5260 so it's exclusion if we play that. Could also have been 5161 maybe but then he would have had ♣A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcLight Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 I don't know Precision, so maybe I shouldn't respond, but doesn't this bidding imply responder has longer ♦ than ♠, and at least 5♠?Why not bid 4S instead of 4H, playing in the 5-3 fit rather than the 6-1 (or 0) fit? As for 3S vs 3H, might responder think you have 4 spades? Pard is not asking for aces, so maybe he has 5-2-6-0 shape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 I'm fine with 3♥. 3♣ sounds like a 5-4. I would have just bid 4♠ over 3. I don't care for 4♥. This doesn't look like a suit I want to play opposite a void. 5♣ is a strange call. if pard had a 5=2=6=0, why didn't pard bid 4 or 5 clubs over 3♥? I think pard has something like a great 5=1=7=0: AKxxx x AKJxxxx void. 6♠ will probably make in practice (who leads the ♥A on this auction?) but I need to slow down pard and show my spades, so I'll try 5♠ - even if it sounds like a cuebid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 10xx KQJ87x - A9xxYou are playing precision and open 1H. The bidding continues:1H - 2D2H - 2S3H - 3S4H - 5C... What are your thoughts about 3H and 4H?What's partner doing and what is your call now? IMO 3♥ was OK. Arguably, 4♠ is a better bid than 4♥ over 3♠. Although ♥ may in fact play better, even opposite a void. Partner's shape is probably 5260 or 5170.Now 5♠ sounds too encouraging but I don't suppose 5♥ is going to put partner off, either :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 If I understood the auction correctly, looks like a wtp 6♠ unless it's Exclusion. Partner went for slam not knowing if we had any fit. I have 3 spades, a void in diamonds, and the Ace of clubs. Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 wtf 4♥? Looks like an auto 4♠ to me. South already bid hearts 3 times and has spade support. I agree with 3♥ though. 5♣ is obviously a slam try of some sort. I'd guess that partner has either 5260 or 5170/5161 with the ♥A. If I could bid 4♠ to play now I would. I guess since partner thinks we're playing in hearts I'd better sign off in 5♥. The right dummy may produce a decent slam (AKxxx A Axxxxxx --- for instance) but I really just want a plus on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 I'd like to point out that I didn't hold this hand. :-) Nor was I the partner or an opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 well 5C means partner is coming in hearts, and has clubs controlled. Since I cannot bid a natural 5S now having bid 4H the round before, I have to bid 5H now. I haveno interest in slam at all since partner could easily be a strong 5161, and even 5260 is not great if he doesn't have the HA and we get a club lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 I'll stand by my statement. Partner has made a slam try across a minimum 1♥ opener. My hand went from garbage to awesome. This sounds to me like a hand like: AKQxx xx AKQxxx --- Even that's not safe across my possible hands, but I think you have to give it a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 If it is right to say that the auction is completely natural, and after 2H it doesn't matter that you were playing strong club, then 4H rather than 4S seems odd. After 5C, I agree with jtfanclub. Can't see how we can bid anything other than 6S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 ♠10xx ♥KQJ87x ♦- ♣A9xx 1H - 2D... I like the opening bid. ...2H - 2S... I like the rebid of hearts ...3H - 3S... ...I think I'd introduce clubs here. I don't get it bidding hearts over and over again when I have a perfectly good club suit to mention. Partner is allowed to have 4054 shape at this point. ...4H - 5C... This one boggles my mind. WTF?!? I mean, I could imagine two basic schemes here: 1. 4♣ flags diamonds, 4♦ flags spades. 2. 4♣ flags spades, 4♦ is natural 4♥ to show spade support is not one that I had considered. I suppose that 4♥ makes sense, though, if: 1. 4♣ is a power diamond raise2. 4♦ is a passable diamond raise/preference3. 4♥ is a power spade raise, and4. 4♠ is a weak spade preference It might make sense to have 4♥ not a viable contract here, but that seems odd. After 4♥, I don't know what the heck is going on, having bid this so insanely, unless there is a secret agreement here. 5♣ seems like a PUNT slam try, so I'll make a WAG -- 6♠. This is probably either making six or down in five. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 The player who bid 4H is of the opinion that 3S in this auction can often be only 4 as a punt to 3NT. Therefore he wasn't willing to raise to 4S. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 The player who bid 4H is of the opinion that 3S in this auction can often be only 4 as a punt to 3NT. Therefore he wasn't willing to raise to 4S. Thoughts? I think it ridiculous to assume that an undiscussed natural-sounding bid is artificial. I can see the benefits of playing 3♠ as an artificial request for a club stop, or as two-way, either 5-6 or a try for 3NT. The way to deal with that thought is to assume at the table that 3♠ is natural, and later discuss whether to play it as artificial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 The other hand had AKJxx 10x K10xxxx - I believe, I think this is a 4H bid over 3H. Even 1H-2D-2H-2S-3H-3S-3NT-4H is an overstatement and 5C over 4H is far too much, especially in a precision setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 The player who bid 4H is of the opinion that 3S in this auction can often be only 4 as a punt to 3NT. Therefore he wasn't willing to raise to 4S. Thoughts? I don't think so. Our 3♥ bid should either deny a club stopper or show 7 hearts. With 4162 and no club stopper p would have bid 4♥ instead of 3♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 The other hand had AKJxx 10x K10xxxx - I believe, I think this is a 4H bid over 3H.I agree - opposite 3=6 in the majors you probably want to be in hearts anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I think Responder has a 3♥ bid over 2♥, personally. But, after 3♣ (from Opener instead of 3♥), definitely 3♥. If Opener keeps bidding hearts, then 4♦ is probably a fair bid -- stronger heart support. What a sick and stubborn auction! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I think Responder has a 3♥ bid over 2♥, personally. I don't know their agreements in this direction but I imagine that 2H does not suggest 6 hearts or denies 4 spades. If this is indeed the case then 3H by responder would of course be ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 The player who bid 4H is of the opinion that 3S in this auction can often be only 4 as a punt to 3NT. Therefore he wasn't willing to raise to 4S. Thoughts? Um, that I've done worse things in my life than play a Moysian where the 3 card hand had a one-loser side suit, a void, and a side ace as an entry? That I've done them sober? That if I had 4 spades I'd have raised 2♠ to 3, so partner shouldn't think I just pulled a 4th spade out of my ass? That the actual hand makes me wonder what responder was smoking when he bid 5♣? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I think Responder has a 3♥ bid over 2♥, personally. I don't know their agreements in this direction but I imagine that 2H does not suggest 6 hearts or denies 4 spades. If this is indeed the case then 3H by responder would of course be ridiculous. True. But then why not 3♥ over what looks like an obvious 3♣ bid? The world is a lot easier when people can actually find and establish 8-card major fits in a game-forcing auction below game. I mean, I understand that 2♥ might for some people not show a sixth heart (I dislike that, but OK). I also understand that for these people 3♣ might simply show clubs and five hearts. I also understand that in that situation Responde3r might opt to complete his own pattern by bidding 3♠, rather than bidding 3♥ to allow Opener to bid 3♠ with a three-card suit, because Opener might not bid a fragment here. But, that's friggin' stupid. Any approach with five-card major openings where the partnership cannot assuredly discover a 6-2 major fit is ridiculous. I mean, in this situation, Opener bid his heart suit four times to show six hearts. That's brilliant. I think I'd like to be able to show the sixth heart in two bids, or at least in two and a half bids, thank you. rotflol The part I love is that you also cannot find a 5-3 spade fit either, because rebidding spades could be a "punt" bid. 1♥(I have five hearts)-P-2♣(I have some clubs)-P-2♥(I have five hearts)-P-2♠(I have four spades)-P-3♥(I have five hearts)-P-3♠(I have four spades)-P-4♥(I have six hearts) Yeah, that's great stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I am not making a case for the 3H bid, but it obviously showed 6. I didn't understand the 4H bid myself which was why I posted the hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I am not making a case for the 3H bid, but it obviously showed 6. I didn't understand the 4H bid myself which was why I posted the hand. All that I am saying is that the auction was absurd well before the 4♥ bid. 3♣ is much better than 3♥ and solves a world of hurt. 3♠ over 3♥ was a strange but at least plausible call, I suppose. 4♥ was, I agree, just plain bizarre. However, taking the apparent thinking of the players in mind, I see why this problem developed. 3♥ was bid because 3♣ might be bid with 5+ hearts and 4+ clubs, and Opener wanted to show the sixth heart for damn sure. 3♠ was bid with probable intention to pattern out with a 4♥ call, which has some appeal. 4♥ was bid because 3♠ might be a waiting bid or some crazy thing like that, so 4♥ at least gets us to 4♥ or 4♠. But this results in an answer to the "wtf" problem of a specific bid that the pair has no clue how to bid. If nothing makes sense, why question a particular aspect of a chain of insane moves? The man ran down the middle of the street naked carrying two dead chickens and a bowling ball. He was yelling out obscenities about how Ryan Seacrest is the head of an alien invasion force. But, at the end of the road, he started strangely beating his head against a stop sign. Why did he beat his head against a stop sign? That's weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 For once we are not disagreeing Ken. I think this was a complete wtf auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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