Should anyone have done more?

[mikegill]

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=stxxhj98dqt9xcxxx&s=saxxhakqxxdakjxxc]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♣ X 1♠ P

2♣ 2♥ 2♠ P

3♣ 3♦ 4♣ 4♦

P 5♦ All pass[/hv]

 

The only maybe nonstandard agreement that you have is X and pull shows ~18-22 and is NF. X and J/S would have been GF. Opponents are bad if that matters to anybody.

[han]

Do you play unusual 2NT? If so 2NT followed by 3S seems a good way to bid this hand.

[matmat]

in the framework of OS, have you shown a very unbalanced hand, or could you still be 2542? also, doesn't 2N show this hand? i.e. 2 suiter with hearts and another and < 4 losers? or do you just play power double/1NTO? (are you even playing OS? or am i reading too much into the power double?)

[mikeh]

This is a tough hand.

 

I am not comfortable with 2♥... but I understand it, especially in light of the stipulated non-standard agreement (as I read the OP) in that 2♥ showed 18-22. However, counting points is not the best way to value the South hand.. game has a decent play opposite xxx xxx xxx xxxx. And the opps's auction tends to suggest we have a red suit fit somewhere.

 

So I would have cue-bid 3♣ over 2♣. Interestingly, this almost certainly finds the diamond fit, which is critical for slam purposes. This is no surprise, since the cue will generate a bid in advancer's longest red suit.

 

Once we have bid 2♥, it is going to be tough to reach slam (not that it is easy sailing after 3♣, mind you). I do think that North should have raised hearts over 2♠: 3♥ is not an overbid by any stretch.

 

Now, maybe, just maybe, S is worth 4♦, natural... and if North raises to 5♦, S can and should bid the slam.. but it is a lot easier to do this seeing both hands than it would be at the table.

[pclayton]

I've never made a power double with 10 cards in the unbid suits and a void in opener's in my life. How would you feel if pard passes with a 3334 6 count (like he should?).

 

If you are really playing OS, you have a 2N overcall (♥+ another) and 0-4 losers. Pard would bid 3♥ (discouraging) and you might try 4♦. This could get pard to cooperate, but North's hand turns out great for slam. How does he know 3=4 in the blacks is good, but 4=3 is bad.

 

If you aren't playing OS, I can't comment, since I don't know your methods.

[mikegill]

Actually I'm not sure what OS is - feel free to enlighten me (maybe I've heard of it but just not referred to as OS). I guess this means I'm not playing it.

 

2NT followed by 3♠ was an option maybe that would be better.

 

I think the 3d bid has to be at least 5-5 reds, all equal vul IMPs when the opponents haven't even shown a fit yet. Seems to me that 2542 should just X 3♣ after having already shown 5 hearts if it were a hand this strong in high cards.

 

2♥ was probably too conservative, but it sounded like it could easily be a misfit hand. In retrospect I think this was a mistake. Agree counting high cards is not the way to go on this hand.

 

Should I really be worried about partner passing 1♣ X with a 3334 6-count? This sounds crazy to me, but I've been wrong about such things before. I thought X was better as it gets spades into play more (I guess 2n... 3♠ does this as well but you might not be able to get that bid in).

[matmat]

OS = overcall structure, which is the usual context for inverting the meanings of double and 1NT, though maybe in this case you're just calling the X a power double because of the strength of the hand.

[Apollo81]

Should I really be worried about partner passing 1♣ X with a 3334 6-count?

I think he meant 2♥ all pass. North doesnt have a 6 count, but this certainly could have happened if the opps had cooperated.

[rbforster]

Actually I'm not sure what OS is - feel free to enlighten me (maybe I've heard of it but just not referred to as OS).  I guess this means I'm not playing it. 

Specifically, playing "Overcall Structure" you swap X and 1NT as direct overcaller, and call the double a "power double" since it shows 15+ usually balanced (although it could be a very strong one suiter just like standard). This is why people thought your were playing overcall structure since "power double" refers to this specific convention. Since the most common hand is 15-17 balanced for a power double, you can pass the double for penalty (if they don't bid first) a lot more often and with fewer trumps/values than you can a usual takeout double (which is both weaker and with fewer trumps on average).

 

In addition, in OS, you can bid 2NT which shows a ~4 loser or better hand with at least 9 cards in ♥+another in this situation. Hopefully the responses make more sense now!

 

(if you want to learn more about overcall structure, you can find more here)

[beowulf]

Putting aside all this talk of "OS", there are a couple of observations to make. First, why would you want to have an agreement that X and "pull" shows 18-22 hcp? That means there are going to be quite a lot of hands that you can't reasonably show otherwise, such as ♠AKJxxx ♥Qxxx ♦Ax ♣x over a minor opening (wouldn't this be worth a double, followed by spades if partner bids the other minor?).

Second, the opponents have only 16 hcp (so neither of them can possibly have "extras") yet they bailed you out after your 2♥ call (that was nice of them).

Thirdly, you have a three loser hand! As noted elsewhere, you can make game across from a flat Yarborough! A possible, if non-scientific, sequence might be double, then cuebid spades, then bid 6♦. Your partner should be getting the message about that time. With no A of his own, and better diamonds than hearts, he can happily pass.

[jtfanclub]

Are people seriously claiming that they'd find the slam on this?

[neilkaz]

mikegill wrote " The only maybe nonstandard agreement that you have is X and pull shows ~18-22 and is NF. X and J/S would have been GF. "

 

That doesn't sound that nonstandard unless you are a slave to HCP count. IMHO, the given hand is a rock crusher and needs little for slam, and game should be a decent bet opposite a yarb.

 

With that in mind, I think 2♥ is rather wimpy so that's one bid from S that I regard as somewhat of an underbid.

 

On South's third turn, he bids only 3♦ with this mountain, for his 2nd underbid. I would jump to 4♦.

 

On South's 4th turn all he does is carry on to game, which I also regard as an underbid since he can show a control and flash a slam signal with 4♠.

 

So, IMHO, South probably underbid his monster 3 times in the given auction.

 

Han's plan of using U2NT and then Q'ing 3♠ is also a good way to proceed here.

 

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

[neilkaz]

beowolf wrote " That means there are going to be quite a lot of hands that you can't reasonably show otherwise, such as ♠AKJxxx ♥Qxxx ♦Ax ♣x over a minor opening (wouldn't this be worth a double, followed by spades if partner bids the other minor?). "

 

For me your given hand is a clear 1♠ overcall and almost a king light for what I need to X and then free bid ♠.

 

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

[Apollo81]

beowolf wrote " That means there are going to be quite a lot of hands that you can't reasonably show otherwise, such as ♠AKJxxx ♥Qxxx ♦Ax ♣x over a minor opening (wouldn't this be worth a double, followed by spades if partner bids the other minor?). "

 

For me your given hand is a clear 1♠ overcall and almost a king light for what I need to X and then free bid ♠.

Agree that the example given is a clear overcall.

[kenrexford]

Are people seriously claiming that they'd find the slam on this?

A very standard auction. You see this ALL the time. LOL

 

OK.

 

1♣-2NT-P(presumably)-3♦-

P(presumably)-3♠-P-4♥-

P-4♠-P-4NT-

P-6♦-all pass

 

When Advancer shows longer diamonds than hearts in this sequence, and the 2NT overcaller makes yet another slam move, it seems that Advancer owes the 4NT cue. That should be enough.

 

So, sure.

[jtfanclub]

Are people seriously claiming that they'd find the slam on this?

A very standard auction. You see this ALL the time. LOL

 

OK.

 

1♣-2NT-P(presumably)-3♦-

P(presumably)-3♠-P-4♥-

P-4♠-P-4NT-

P-6♦-all pass

 

When Advancer shows longer diamonds than hearts in this sequence, and the 2NT overcaller makes yet another slam move, it seems that Advancer owes the 4NT cue. That should be enough.

 

So, sure.

By longer diamonds, you mean 3 diamonds and 2 hearts, right? Even 4243 in North is probably death.

 

Even in your auction, North basically says "I have nothing, I have nothing, I still have nothing. Please go away". And yet somehow, South is supposed to figure out that East can cover three of South's losers. If North is missing so much as the jack of hearts this slam is what, 50%? Less?

[kenrexford]

Are people seriously claiming that they'd find the slam on this?

A very standard auction. You see this ALL the time. LOL

 

OK.

 

1♣-2NT-P(presumably)-3♦-

P(presumably)-3♠-P-4♥-

P-4♠-P-4NT-

P-6♦-all pass

 

When Advancer shows longer diamonds than hearts in this sequence, and the 2NT overcaller makes yet another slam move, it seems that Advancer owes the 4NT cue. That should be enough.

 

So, sure.

By longer diamonds, you mean 3 diamonds and 2 hearts, right? Even 4243 in North is probably death.

 

Even in your auction, North basically says "I have nothing, I have nothing, I still have nothing. Please go away". And yet somehow, South is supposed to figure out that East can cover three of South's losers. If North is missing so much as the jack of hearts this slam is what, 50%? Less?

Your objections seem to be based on too shallow a view.

 

Suppose Advancer has something like ♠10xx ♥xx ♦Qxx ♣xxxxx. Over 3♠, why would he bid 4♥? That makes zero sense.

 

With something like ♠10xx ♥Jx ♦Qxx ♣xxxxx, then maybe he'd bid 4♥, but that still seems a tad rich. Even with that, however, the 5-level is fairly safe.

 

So, I think that 4♥ must show 3-4 pattern, especially when the 2NT bidder is looking at the A-K-Q of hearts and therefore realizes that Advancer cannot have Qx or a beter doubleton for this 4♥ call.

 

If Advancer has 3♥/4♦, then the five-level seems somewhat safe. Sure, you might lose two spades and a diamond on a spade lead if the diamond Queen is not with Advancer, does not drop, and is accompanied by fewer than three hearts, and if Responder does not have a doubleton spade or a useful holding that messes up cashing spades (like J10x). So, the 2NT bidder, who can visualize the play fairly well when diamonds come in, could almost just leap to 6♦. If the diamonds come in, then 12 tricks will be there if hearts also come in. That's asking too much. So, he cues 4♠ to see if Advancer has one more card. 4NT confirms this. Slam is bid.

 

If Advancer actually does have 3-2 pattern, his solution to 4♠ is simple. He signs off at 5♦.

[jtfanclub]

It seems that I'm misunderstanding the 4NT bid, which I took as 'I really have nothing whatsoever to show'.

 

What does it mean?

[kenrexford]

It seems that I'm misunderstanding the 4NT bid, which I took as 'I really have nothing whatsoever to show'.

 

What does it mean?

As I understand it, a 4NT call in a wildly lopsided auction like this cannot be Blackwood. We both agree that this would be stupid.

 

The auction seems to scream that we are playing diamonds at this point. The 4♥ suggestion would have been nice if we were in a game-only stance, as 10 is easier than 11 to grab and run. However, once we enter the five-level, we are playing the best trump suit, and that is diamonds.

 

If diamonds are trumps, then 4NT is not an offer to play. 3NT might have been an offer to play, but not 4NT in this sequence. So, 4NT must be a cue. 4NT as a cue fills the space of whatever cannot be cue'd. Here, however, the only two remaining cues are 4NT and 5♣.

 

The usual take I would have is that, when in doubt, 4NT shows either the missing control (not relevant here) or a trump card. Thus, I would expect 4NT to show a diamond card (Ace, King, or Queen), with 5♣ showing some other card (spade or heart).

 

Alternatively, 4NT might show an "internal" card (any red card), whereas 5♣ would show an external card (spade King, for example, or possibly the club Ace).

 

Either way, I'm covered with the diamond Queen in bidding 4NT.