Raise with 3 and a stiff?

[ccw]

In a precision/weak NT framework my partner and I are having a "discussion" about the following shape

 

x

xxx

xxxxx

xxxx

 

 

After the auction begins

1♦ 1♥

 

 

We are trying to civilly come to agreement about when it is right to raise

to 2♥ as opposed to bidding 2♣.

 

 

Is there consensus about this or is it really a matter of discussion and style among experts as well...? Are there other criteria that are brought to bear when choosing?

 

Thanks

 

Collins

[ASkolnick]

The biggest criteria I can see are how big are you clubs? How good are your hearts?

 

Heart Suit

HTx or H9x, is great for ruffing support. while

432 would be bad. Trump lead or switch will kill it lots of times.

 

Club Suit

 

8765 isn't much of a suit, but KQJx is.

 

Where you decide to cross the line may be up to partner and you. If you hold a decent hand, you may want to bid clubs first, so you can get the nice auction of 1D-1H-2C-2D-2H which would be an excellent hand in a context of precision bidding. If he passes 2C, you are probably ok.

[awm]

I think it is virtually always right to raise to 2♥ here. It is very often the case that 2♥ is the best partscore, even if partner has only four of them. Raising also can get you to some borderline games when partner has 5+♥ and a shapely hand that might pass a 2♣ rebid.

 

Raising is even more important in a strong club system, because in this method 1♦...2♣ could be 5-4 either way and has limited strength. So partner will very often pass with 3♣/2♦ for example (why risk a 4-2 diamond fit in order to make a "false preference" to cater to a "strong hand" that opener can't even have because he didn't open strong ♣).

[ccw]

I think it is virtually always right to raise to 2♥ here. It is very often the case that 2♥ is the best partscore, even if partner has only four of them. Raising also can get you to some borderline games when partner has 5+♥ and a shapely hand that might pass a 2♣ rebid.

 

OK thanks... Are there specific methods for unwinding 3 vs 4 card support when responder has at least some interest in going forward? Or can this further development be handled naturally?

[inquiry]

Always raise hearts.

[Free]

Always raise hearts.

agree, although MAYBE 1 exception: with ♥AKQ...

[kenrexford]

Q1: When to raise a 3-card suit? As you suggested, this seems to be a debated topic amongst reasonable players. Different views are everywhere, all reasoned. For my part, I now rarely raise with three, limiting this to a reverse problem. Thus, for example, I'd raise to 2♠ with 3145/3451/3415 pattern if not good enough to reverse. 1♦-P-1♥ for me, then, is never raised on three-card support (if no competition) because I cannot have that problem.

 

Others have multiple different and reasonable views, though. So, I think it is a partnership issue.

 

As to the unwind, I'm sure there are various approaches to this, as well. The technique I use is that 2NT is a general game try, witrh a rebid by Opener of his minor denying four-card support but promising the reverse problem.

[jtfanclub]

If you play a Precision 'natural diamond' system, like the ones mentioned being played in the top 6 European teams thread, you can not only raise to 2♥ on 3, you can have 2♥ *promise* 3.

 

For example:

 

1♦-1♥....

1♠: Natural

1NT: Natural, usually a singleton heart.

2♣: Natural, usually two card support.

2♦: Natural, usually two card support.

2♥: Natural, 3 card support.

2♠ Singleton spade, 4 card heart support.

......3♣ Asks about strength

......3♦ Asks about shape

2NT: Singleton club, 4 card heart support.

......3♣ Asks about strength

......3♦ Asks about shape

3♣: Two suiter clubs and diamonds, singleton or void in hearts.

3♦: One suited diamond hand, singleton or void in hearts.

3♥: Two suiter, ideally 7411 or 6511 diamonds and hearts.

 

It does have a tendency to put you at the 3 level, but with either a freak hand for opener or a good 8+ card fit. So weren't you going to end up there anyways, regardless of strength?

[awm]

Dunno about this "precision with natural diamond" claim. It seems that:

 

(1) If 1♦ promises 4+♦ and an unbalanced hand, then what JT suggests is true. However, I don't see anyone playing this in a strong club context -- the "top six" pairs mentioned included only one who were using a strong club base and they were playing a 1♦ opening that includes a balanced range.

 

(2) There is also some issue with not wanting to make the same call over 1♦-1♥ with both of a 3-1-7-2 hand and a 3-1-5-4 hand (on the former you want to rebid diamonds, on the latter you want to show your clubs or maybe bid notrump). So using a 1NT rebid to show "singleton diamond" seems not quite right to me.

 

In terms of sorting things out after 1♦-1♥-2♥:

 

(1) It is popular to play the cheapest call as a relay, where you distinguish in steps both the strength of the raise (max/min) and the number of cards (3/4). Usually this is credited to Garrozzo.

 

(2) A simpler method that I prefer is to use 2NT/3♥ as four and five card game tries respectively (over 2NT opener bids 3♥/4♥ with four hearts and Pass/something natural with three hearts) and then to use all new suit bids as natural and game-forcing (opener rebids 3♥ with four hearts and otherwise does something natural). This is actually much better than the relay approach for getting to the best game (because you get to find out what opener's shape is and why he raised on three), but you lose a bunch of your "game try" sequences.

[jtfanclub]

You're right, I meant the shape-promising diamond as discussed in that thread. Sorry.

 

(2) There is also some issue with not wanting to make the same call over 1♦-1♥ with both of a 3-1-7-2 hand and a 3-1-5-4 hand (on the former you want to rebid diamonds, on the latter you want to show your clubs or maybe bid notrump). So using a 1NT rebid to show "singleton diamond" seems not quite right to me.

 

In the example I gave (and it was intended to be a random example), 1NT, 3♣, and 3♦ all show a hand with short hearts - three suited, two suited, and one suited, respectively.

 

You need three bids to show 4 card support- short club, short spade, and a two-suiter. You only need one call for 3 card support, because you have lots of room for a relay. In this case, you have two calls with a heart doubleton and 3 with heart shortness. But you can mix that around as you'd like.

[rbforster]

OK thanks... Are there specific methods for unwinding 3 vs 4 card support when responder has at least some interest in going forward? Or can this further development be handled naturally?

I handle it naturally and while there is probably room for improvement this is quite simple -

 

1♦ - 1M - 2M (may be 3) - ?

 

2N invite with only 4M, NF

3m,OM game try in that suit, agreeing M (5+)

3N choice of games with only 4M

4M game with 5+ M