jdaming Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Okay so last night at the club this situation happened: Partner is playing a contract say...♦ is already going down but all of this is I think inconsequential. She has all trump in her hand but 1 bad ♣. Dummy has 2♦ left and no ♣. LHO has one low trump. My partner drops 2 top trumps and the club and says pulling trump and ruffing a club. Director gets to table and rules that since she dropped 2 trumps she was going to pull 2 rounds of trump and would have in this case left no trump in dummy so she could not ruff. I thought this was unfair as is not logical even if there were 2 trumps out which there were not. What is the proper ruling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranebill Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 If it was stated pulling one round of trumps, then ruffing club, I would say a fair claim, but you stated they said "pulling trump" and laying two trumps on the table, I think the director is correct, albeit pedantic, but that is what bridge is all about, it is in the detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I would think it clear that the claim statement "pulling trump and ruffing a club" only makes sense if there is a trump left to ruff with. So I would rule the rest of the tricks and that declarer was aware of the outstanding trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Not enough information. I'd have to be there. But yes, it's certainly a possiblity that I'd rule in favor of down 1 more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdaming Posted June 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 What more info do you need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Maybe how many total cards were left? IMO if these were the last 3 cards it's clear the ruling was bad, when you claim you are supposed to face all your cards & state line of play, and supposedly it was "pulling trump" singular & ruff club. Both LHO & director are being ridiculous if this is the case. But if there were say 6 cards left then facing exactly two trumps & a club but concealing the others is really weird, it's less clearcut. Train your partner not to do that, face all the cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I would think it clear that the claim statement "pulling trump and ruffing a club" only makes sense if there is a trump left to ruff with. So I would rule the rest of the tricks and that declarer was aware of the outstanding trump. Agree with gnome, this is not a problem. Talk about lawyering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 "Pulling trump" sounds plural to me, especially in combination with facing exactly two trump from your own hand. I think I'd reluctantly award the defenders one more trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdaming Posted June 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 there were 6 cards left declarer held 5 trump and 1 bad club If "pulling trump" is plural what is singular? Seemed to me that no reasonable play could involve playing two rounds of trump only to realize none were left in dummy. Even if the defender had 2 trumps the only logical way to play it would be to either play one round then ruff or ruff and then come back to hand with a trump. LHO was not out of ♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 "Pulling trump" sounds plural to me, especially in combination with facing exactly two trump from your own hand. I think I'd reluctantly award the defenders one more trick. Depends a bit what country you are in.In the UK, people tend to say "drawing trumps" in general, and then "drawing the trump" if there is only one left. "pulling trump" would only be said by a visitor from across the Atlantic, but in particular "trump" is singular and "trumps" are plural. The US form seems to be that "trump" is a plural noun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranebill Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I was under the impression, that if you lay the cards on the table whilst claiming, that is the order the cards must be played? IF, that is the case, the TD was correct ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I was under the impression, that if you lay the cards on the table whilst claiming, that is the order the cards must be played? IF, that is the case, the TD was correct ? This is not correct. You face your hand (or lay it on the table) and state a line of play. The line of play dictates the order, not the order of the cards in your hand as faced. My trumps may be in my hand as 24KA, and not AK42, if you say drawing trumps, obviously you are not leading the two first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 there were 6 cards left declarer held 5 trump and 1 bad club If "pulling trump" is plural what is singular? Seemed to me that no reasonable play could involve playing two rounds of trump only to realize none were left in dummy. Even if the defender had 2 trumps the only logical way to play it would be to either play one round then ruff or ruff and then come back to hand with a trump. LHO was not out of ♣. How many cards were left remaining at the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 "Pulling trump" sounds plural to me, especially in combination with facing exactly two trump from your own hand. I think I'd reluctantly award the defenders one more trick. Depends a bit what country you are in.In the UK, people tend to say "drawing trumps" in general, and then "drawing the trump" if there is only one left. "pulling trump" would only be said by a visitor from across the Atlantic, but in particular "trump" is singular and "trumps" are plural. The US form seems to be that "trump" is a plural noun. I think you will hear both "drawing trump" and "drawing trumps" on this side of the Atlantic, but that "drawing trump" is more common. And, as you suggest, with just a single trump outstanding, one would tend to say "drawing the trump" or even "pulling the last trump". But, regardless of which side of the Atlantic you are on, wouldn't you expect "pulling trump" in combination with the facing of two trumps to mean "drawing two rounds"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 If you say you're going to ruff a club, it would not be normal to denude your dummy of trumps before leading the club. As others have said, you'd have to have been there, but I think it unlikely I would award a trick to the defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 But, regardless of which side of the Atlantic you are on, wouldn't you expect "pulling trump" in combination with the facing of two trumps to mean "drawing two rounds"? I'd also expect that if declarer said he was going to ruff a club in dummy, he wouldn't draw all of dummy's trumps first! Note that the facing of the hand is used in determining whether there has been a claim, not in determining the order of the tricks. The claim statement is what dictates the order of the tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 What more info do you need? When I'm claiming, I frequently show my hand one card at a time, in the order I'm playing them in, such as "play a trump, draw the last trump, ruff a club, run the diamonds from the top". If that's what the person was doing, then I guess I'd have to rule against him. But my tendency would be to rule the claim was good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 It is so obvious that if I state a line which includes the words " ruff club" that it would be plain silly to draw all trumps from dummy first. Besides this, "drawing trump" sounds singular to me, so there was NO reason for the TD to rule different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 When a player lays down his hand one card at a time while stating his line of play, clearly he is showing how the line of play will go, in his hand. When a player does something else, such as laying down his hand and stating a line of play, the order in which he lays down his cards is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 When a player lays down his hand one card at a time while stating his line of play, clearly he is showing how the line of play will go, in his hand. When a player does something else, such as laying down his hand and stating a line of play, the order in which he lays down his cards is irrelevant. It's just not clear to me. He 'dropped two trumps and a club' out of his hand could mean he tossed three cards down simultaneously, or dropped a trump, then a trump, then a club. Certainly if he put down his entire hand at the same time, it wouldn't matter what order it was in. He didn't do that, but what he did do I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASkolnick Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 From what I can tell, she laid down her entire hand of 3 cards and said "Pulling trump" and ruffing a club. If she has more than 3 cards in her hand, it is a much dicier situation. Play ceases as soon as a claim is made, so the order would not matter. So what she laid down should not be relevant. If she claims she is ruffing a club, how can it be logical that she would remove the trump since theoretically, a ruff couldn't happen. However, if there were still two trump out, then I would have to rule against her since the order of the stated claim does matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 From what I can tell, she laid down her entire hand of 3 cards and said "Pulling trump" and ruffing a club. If she has more than 3 cards in her hand, it is a much dicier situation. That was clarified later. She had 5 trump and 1 club, and put down 2 trump and one club, whether all at the same time or one at a time in that order I couldn't tell from the text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jikl Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 I am sure blackshoe will correct me on this, however... If the stated line included the statement of "ruffing a club", the only possible question is whether there is one more trump out. Remember that a claim can be sloppy but not stupid. Therefore it comes down to definition; is drawing the trump sloppy? Or is it just completely contradicting the claim itself? Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Heh. I suppose the TD could have asked her how many trump were still out. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk10 Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Hi,I must say I'm very glad I'm not playing in the club where people make such ridicilous claims as this, or in the club of those of you that think TD was right. Making such a stupid claim in my club would make sure the claimer would be laughed at (if a regular player in club), or warned against making more of such if he/she was new to the club, people who tend to use every oportunity to get higher score with such behavior are not warmly welcomed here. Never seen any clearer mistake by TD. People who argue the oposite: Pls stay away from my club, you will not like it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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