pclayton Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 1♣ - (1♦) - pass - (4♠)Dbl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Now and until the rivers run dry, it is penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 I think this falls into the category of "I have a big hand" doubles. Typically these doubles are not based on a trump stack and promise some degree of convertible values if partner wants to remove them... but they also promise that we're beating the opponents contract most of the time. On this particular auction, given that partner couldn't find a call over 1♦ I think the chances of pulling the double are virtually nil -- if partner had the 5+♣ or 6+♥ required for a reasonable pull he would've found a call over 1♦. So I'll vote "penalty" on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 I couldn't resist voting for "something new-age." Seriously, how can it not suggest 4Sx as a final contract. If your partner has any hand he has a diamond trap. Furthermore, we could have bid 4NT with 5-6 in the rounded suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Good hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 I'm sure I'd X with Ax AQxx x AKxxxx etc, I think partner can/will definitely takeout sometimes. But I don't believe in pure penalty Xs when you haven't described your hand yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Strong hand, expect to beat 4♠. I would describe the double as "penalty" unless that implies a trump stack. Clearly, the double shows a great hand and a willingness to defend, but it says nothing about spades. If partner takes it out, he has to have a good reason. I have not denied a hand that is useful on offense ("transferrable values"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Strong hand, expect to beat 4♠. I would describe the double as "penalty" unless that implies a trump stack. Clearly, the double shows a great hand and a willingness to defend, but it says nothing about spades. If partner takes it out, he has to have a good reason. I have not denied a hand that is useful on offense ("transferrable values"). Maybe it is semantics, but to me penalty implies that partner will always pass in this context, and that you can freely X with something like KQJT of spades and 2 aces. If partner will bid with a good reason to bid, that is takeout to me, and would imply that you can't just X with trumps + aces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 A hand where I think we may have a game bonus to protect, even though partner couldn't bid over 1D. A strong 4-6 would be typical, and partner should bid with good shape. Definitely not a balanced 19-count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 If partner will bid with a good reason to bid, that is takeout to me, and would imply that you can't just X with trumps + aces. If partner needs a good reason to bid, that sounds like "transferrable values". Surely "takeout" means that I'm supplying most of his reason to bid, and all he needs to provide is ♥K10xxx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 If partner will bid with a good reason to bid, that is takeout to me, and would imply that you can't just X with trumps + aces. If partner needs a good reason to bid, that sounds like "transferrable values". Surely "takeout" means that I'm supplying most of his reason to bid, and all he needs to provide is ♥K10xxx? If you think a 4-6 hand is typical then how would you ever pass with KTxxx of hearts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Also voted for something new-age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 If you think a 4-6 hand is typical then how would you ever pass with KTxxx of hearts? I'd suppose I'd bid with ♥K10xxx and three clubs, but might pass with a doubleton club. By the definition I made up earlier, that makes my double almost "takeout" but not quite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Strong hand, expect to beat 4♠. I would describe the double as "penalty" unless that implies a trump stack. Clearly, the double shows a great hand and a willingness to defend, but it says nothing about spades. If partner takes it out, he has to have a good reason. I have not denied a hand that is useful on offense ("transferrable values"). Maybe it is semantics, but to me penalty implies that partner will always pass in this context, and that you can freely X with something like KQJT of spades and 2 aces. If partner will bid with a good reason to bid, that is takeout to me, and would imply that you can't just X with trumps + aces. I look at it differently. To me, "takeout" means that partner cannot pass without a very good reason, such as his own trump stack. So this is clearly not a takeout double. On the other hand, it is not a "penalty" double, which implies that partner cannot bid without a very good reason. But it is close to a penalty double, as there are very few hands that he could have on this auction that would take a bid. You are not inviting him to bid (as with a takeout double) but neither are you prohibiting him from bidding (as with a penalty double). I believe a friend of mine describes this as a "bridge double." The bottom line is that we may be quibbling over semantics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 If you think a 4-6 hand is typical then how would you ever pass with KTxxx of hearts? I'd suppose I'd bid with ♥K10xxx and three clubs, but might pass with a doubleton club. By the definition I made up earlier, that makes my double almost "takeout" but not quite. Wow, if you think partner is usually 4-6 then I think passing with KTxxx of hearts and xx clubs is a colossal error that will often cost you a double game swing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Wow, if you think partner is usually 4-6 then I think passing with KTxxx of hearts and xx clubs is a colossal error that will often cost you a double game swing. Yes, I've been a bit inconsistent. "Strong 4-6" was going a bit far: something like x AQxx Axx AKJxx would be enough. Maybe I should define double as "a hand that isn't sure whether it wants to be at the five level opposite ♥K10xxx". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Optionnal. I expect partner to pass 85-90% of the times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Now and until the rivers run dry, it is penalty. Yes, it hasn't been raining for months here so it must be t/o. As Justin says, it may be a semantics thing. Generally better to talk about the expected O-D, or (or, for LOTT diciples, how many enemy trumps it is typically based on). When p dbls a 1♠ or 4♠ opening I base my decision to pass or take out on the idea that he typically has a 1444 or similar. So in that sense the two dbls are of the same kind. But of course I pass 4♠x more often than 1♠x. I think p will assume 2416 or similar and often take the double out with a singleton spade but not with a doubleton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcD Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 4NT would be take out for me. So DBL shows a good unbalanced hand with convertible values (no trump stack, 5+ C) . Ok, get fixed when I have 18-19 balanced but so be it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmunte1 Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Strong hand, short spades for me. I consider strategically wrong to play this kind of double as a penality double. For me a double is for penality when it cannot be used as a take-out, not the case here. Doubling for writing +100 instead of +50 or so it's not a good policy. So i consider Hamman 100% guilty for this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted June 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Compton doubled 4♠ on the auction with ♠KT9x, A, A, K while I was commentating. Hamman pulled with a 1=4=4=4 which was not successful. A very reliable source told me privately that the double is supposed to be TO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Compton doubled 4♠ on the auction with ♠KT9x, A, A, K while I was commentating. Hamman pulled with a 1=4=4=4 which was not successful. A very reliable source told me privately that the double is supposed to be TO. Diametrically opposed to the previous quote (from the infromation point of view), I would welcome clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted June 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Compton doubled 4♠ on the auction with ♠KT9x, A, A, K while I was commentating. Hamman pulled with a 1=4=4=4 which was not successful. A very reliable source told me privately that the double is supposed to be TO. Diametrically opposed to the previous quote (from the infromation point of view), I would welcome clarification. I have no idea what this means, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 I'd always play it as penalty, 4nt for t/o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 I have no idea what this means, sorry. I think the point was this: Edmunte1 said "I consider strategically wrong to play this kind of double as a penality double... So i consider Hamman 100% guilty for this board." PClayton said " Compton doubled 4♠ on the auction with ♠KT9x, A, A, K while I was commentating. Hamman pulled with a 1=4=4=4 which was not successful." There seems to be some disagreement about which hand Hamman held. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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