Please help me answering this one...

[Hanoi5]

Actually I have many questions regarding this hand, but I'm just gonna make three in this topic. Your North and this is your hand:

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=s102hj7543dq10cj983]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

The bidding so far:

 

Ps Ps 1♦ X

2♦ 2♥ 3♣ 3♥

Ps Ps 4♦ X

Ps ???

 

There are two questions in the poll, feel free to add any comment after answering the poll. I'd also like to know whether you would have bid 2♥ after 2♦.

 

If it matters, you are a good player against newbies in a team tournament.

 

For the complete story:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?act...t=0#entry286721

[TylerE]

Obvious penalty. Easy pass. I expect partner to be beating this out of his hand, quite possibly taking 4, 5, maybe even 6 tricks off the top. QT of trump is a useful holding. I'm not crazy about 2♥, but I don't hate it either.

[brianshark]

Double shows extra values. Pass now.

[ArtK78]

I would not have bid 2♥ over 2♦. If this is our hand, partner can bid or double again at his next turn to bid. My hand is essentially xx xxxxx xx xxxx.

 

The last double is for penalties. I pass.

 

By the way, I have been playing a lot lately with David Treadwell. David has a rule - one never doubles 4♦ for penalties. He says that once he held AKQJ of diamonds and doubled 4♦ for penalties, and his partner revoked before he got his 4 trump tricks.

 

Of course, there was a hand last Friday night on which I violated Dave's rule and got 1400 non-vul. I told him about it, and he said there are exceptions. :P

[the hog]

I would pass the X and apologise to partner for my silly 2H bid. Seriously this hand would be better without the QT of Ds.

[CSGibson]

Double is penalty. I would have bid 2♥ with your hand as well, but my partners and I have discussed that we will bid a 5 card major with no values in that situation, so there's less risk that we will take each other seriously.

[NickRW]

I too have some disquiet about the 2♥ bid. I might have tried it if the scoring were MPs - maybe. But even there I think you may get another chance to speak as the raiser sounds like they are weak - so one of partner or opener, if not both, have big hands and will likely bid again. So why lead partner into thinking you have a reasonable hand when you don't really?

 

I can't see why the second X could possibly be purely for takeout, partner has already agreed a heart fit. As hearts outrank diamonds what would be the point of a further takeout - to see if we can play in clubs which don't outrank diamonds? It doesn't make sense - well - not to me anyway.

 

Should you take it out? Probably not. They may well have a ten card fit and half the deck and actually make it - but probably the fact that partner sits over declarer will save you. It seems more likely to me to be a plus if you leave this in.

 

If they do make it and partner complains I didn't have my bid, I apologise profusely.

 

Nick

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont like 2H, but it is certainly not wrong,

and I may have done it as well.

 

Now Pass is wtp.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[655321]

Pass.

 

Double is 100% penalties, not 'extra values', not anything, except penalties.

 

The 2♥ bid - it is not a thing of beauty, but I would have bid 2♥ here too. Even though this hand is not ideal for the bid, there are many hands with no defense that would be clear 2♥ bids - partner will not be assuming I have some defensive tricks when he doubles. On this auction, he should only double when he can see he has 4♦ beaten in his own hand.

[mikeh]

I am surprised no one so far has noted that partner bid only 3♥ last time.. this limits his hand so there is no way that we are taking the first 5 or 6 tricks, as someone suggested. Partner has less than a gf opposite a 2♥ call, by us, that will usually deliver a better offensive hand than we hold.

 

In fact, the whole auction sets off alarm bells, but I suspect that at least one and possibly all three of the other players do not have hands that justify the bidding.

 

LHO should be at least 6=4 in the minors, and rho should hold 4 diamonds, in order to raise what might be a 3 card suit. I have only 2 spades! Where are the other 11? Most responders would bid 1♠ over the double, with 4 spades, even with 4 diamonds. There isn't room for 4 spades in opener's hand, and giving him even 3 results in an oddity in the heart suit.. LHO should be void, rho shouldn't hold 4, and therefore partner has 5! To go along with his marked 5 spades!!

 

So all I know so far is that this auction makes zero sense.

 

I cannot imagine a layout on which opener has anything resembling his bids and partner has anything resembling a double.

 

FWIW, double says that he expects to beat it in top tricks.. yet he couldn't bid game over my free 2♥ (not that I think that a 'free bid' shows 'extras', but it does show a reason to bid). And he is marked with long majors, and opener with short majors. AKxx Axxx x Axxx is ok for a double, but it is better for 4♥ last time, so he shouldn't have this... and any less than this may not be beating 4♦..

 

When it is obvious that at least one player has screwed up (and probably more), I pass. If it is partner, then we shall either stop playing together or we shall have a discussion on what it means to listen to the auction. If it is opener, then we are getting a plus score.

[Apollo81]

The 2♥ bid was really bad. If it was our hand, then partner would have taken a call over 2♦, and if it was not, there's no point to bidding and thus making partner think we had something.

 

Anyway the double is penalty but I would pull it. Partner's hand is VERY limited by the 3♥ bid, and I have at best half a defensive trick.

 

If I was CHO and thought that I had 3.5-4 defensive tricks I would double expecting at least half a trick from the 2♥ bid, so I'll bet this is what's going on and that 4♦ is making 10 tricks.

[neilkaz]

Pass and don't care for the 2♥ bid on Jxxxx and a likely useless QT in their suit.

 

With PD doubling 4♦ he should basically have it beat in his own hand since he's doubling them to game. If he expects a trick from my, lets hope that the QT aid whatever he has in ♦ in producing a trick.

 

If I pull to 4♥ I will be surprised to take more than 8 tricks. Just because I stretched to bid 2♥ (I would've passed and waited for another X from PD) doesn't mean that I should pull his X of 4♦ which he should expect us to beat 2 tricks since he's X'ing them to game at IMPs.

 

I don't expect my junk to result in a two trick set, but will pass and hope we set them 1 again noting 4♥ will almost certainly get buried.

[andy_h]

I agree that my hand's not a thing of beauty, but I think I still bid 2♥. I'm a passed hand and have a 5-4 so this feels just about there. And for all I know this could be a partscore battle.

 

As to partner's 2nd X? Hmm, agree with mikeh's analysis that this auction does seem a bit weird. As we are playing against newbies, is there a chance still that RHO would raise diamonds before bidding their spades? And does LHO have to have 6diamonds for bidding 4♦ as he could just be a 5-4 since he knew they had a diamond fit?

Really not sure about partner's 3H-then-x. It looks like penalties so I'm going to pass.

[jtfanclub]

I cannot imagine a layout on which opener has anything resembling his bids and partner has anything resembling a double.

[hv=n=st2hj7543dqtcj983&w=sqj75h986dj65432c&e=s43hq2dak98ck6542&s=sak986haktd7caqt7]399|300|[/hv]

 

Hmmm...on this hand, North, West (there's no way I'm introducing spades with that hand) and South bid resonably, and East has far overstretched his hand, taking a chance. Looks like 4♦X is down, while 4♥ makes, in spite of partner having doubled with 5-3 in the majors. Dunno what that shows.

 

I think there are some things indicated by the auction. East should have 4 diamonds and 5 clubs (I know, it's SO outdated to open that 1♦, be sure to tell him) since otherwise there's no point in showing clubs once you have a fit. South should have a monster but only 3 hearts...why else only bid 3? West, as mikeh points out, almost certainly has 4 spades but didn't show them, which implies to me he has lots of diamonds but no points.

 

If East has more points and South has less, then 4♥ becomes iffy but 4♦X may very well become a lock. I don't like this. The more I think about the hand, the more I think West is very short in clubs (and they have a monster fit in diamonds) and that spells trouble for us.

 

I pull.

[cherdano]

Uhm, JT, on this hand neither opener nor partner have a hand resembling their bidding...

[jtfanclub]

Uhm, JT, on this hand neither opener nor partner have a hand resembling their bidding...

Really? You would bid 1♠ with a 4 count and 6 diamonds, so when the bidding comes around to you at the 3 level next round you won't be able to show your fit? As responder, I'd bid 2♦ without a qualm.

 

As opener, well, I'd open 1♦, I might bid 3♣ (with partner correcting as needed). I wouldn't bid 4♦, but some people get caught up in the moment...

[han]

Opener = East, Partner = South.

 

Agree with Arend.

[jtfanclub]

Opener = East, Partner = South.

 

Agree with Arend.

Oh, I see. Hmmm...I feel reasonably confident on the shapes. More points for East, fewer points for South? Or is it that people are adamantly against Xing with 5314 and a good hand instead of overcalling 1♠?

 

It's very hard for me to make a hand for South that has 4 hearts and sufficient strength to X that wouldn't simply bid 4♥. Which I guess was Mikeh's point.

[ArtK78]

♠ AK986

♥ AKT

♦ 7

♣ AQT7

 

This hand doubled and raised all the way to 3♥ opposite a partner who freely introduced his heart suit over 2♦?

 

Remind me never to double him.

 

Seriously, this hand is closer to a 6♥ bid than a 3♥ bid. And slam has play. In fact, if it were not for the 5-0 club break, slam might easily make. It might still make on a diamond lead if the defense does not find its club ruff.

[Apollo81]

Opener = East, Partner = South.

 

Agree with Arend.

Also agree with Arend, that example is ridiculous

[Hanoi5]

Nobody so far has thought (or said) that some people might be lying (or making a mistake). How does the club bid by opener influence your bid over the second double?

 

I'll post the complete hand in a new topic after getting some more answers.

[nige1]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=s102hj7543dq10cj983]133|100|Scoring: IMP

Actually I have many questions regarding this hand, but I'm just gonna make three in this topic. Your North and this is your hand: The bidding so far:

(_P) _P (1♦) _X

(2♦) 2♥ (3♣) 3♥

(_P) _P (4♦) _X

(_P) ???

 

There are two questions in the poll, feel free to add any comment after answering the poll. I'd also like to know whether you would have bid 2♥ after 2♦. If it matters, you are a good player against newbies in a team tournament.[/hv]

IMO

• Over (2♦), 2♥ = 10, _P = 8.
  
• Now, _P = 10, 4♥ = 9.
  

IMO, the decision is close because the double is not penalties. It is action or cards or transferable values. e.g.

♠ AKxx ♥ Axxx ♦ x ♣ Axxx

[jdonn]

2♥ is a terrible bid over 2♦, there has to be a limit and this hand had no useful values at all. That is why we are in this terrible situation.

[nige1]

2♥ is a terrible bid over 2♦, there has to be a limit and this hand had no useful values at all. That is why we are in this terrible situation.

Granny disagrees. She recommends: When responding to a double and holding an unbid suit, assume partner has bid one of that suit and, if you have the values for a constructive raise, then make it. Had partner bid 1♥ then many would raise on this hand. It is understandable that some prefer to pass instead -- because 2♥ is borderline and may direct the wrong lead -- but is 2♥ really "terrible"?

[the hog]

I think its terrible, Nigel. I really believe that this hand would be better without the QT of Ds. Without those cards I might be more inclined to bid 2H, but would probably still pass. With them I think this is a clear pass.