Turbin Posted March 20, 2004 Report Share Posted March 20, 2004 I’m in team match, first hand, both not vulnerable. My partner is a good player, not my usual partner (true to tell, I haven’t usual partners). Have played already with him, few times; the system is basic Sayc. I have picked up these cards, in south:[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sak4hkqj64daj1087c]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]My partner, the dealer, opens 1S, and that’s the overall auction: 1S-2D; 2NT-4C; (double from my LHO opponent), 4D-4NT; 5D-7S. All pass. About my auction: I assume that: - Partner's 2NT shows an half-balanced hand (5-3-3-2, any doubleton), by from good 13 (with heads and concentrated honours), to 15 points. - Partner’s 4D is the D king, and hasn’t the C ace (redouble, not 4D). - My 4NT is an ugly auction: after the cue bid starting, 4NT hasn’t Blackwood meaning; however, without agreement, I hope it’s. Then, partner’s 5D is an ace, the hearts’ one. RHO opponent leads by clubs, and these were the 26 cards:[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sj10975ha103dk93ck2&s=sak4hkqj64daj1087c]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]Because the C lead and the ruff, my partner must play the spades by heads, and takes the spades Qx over the finesse. An embarrassing good result (6S +1 in the other table). The day after, I have talked with the partner about his 2NT. He has explained:“Playing 2/1 GF, as I do with my partner, 2S would show six spades cards”. After my objections, he has agreed with my opinions. Later, I have asked to a 2/1 GF expert, and he has replied:“2NT, both in Sayc or 2/1 GF…2S only with six cards…Repeating the spades with five cards, you tell two times the same story”. Here my opinions. In Sayc, 1Major…2Major doesn’t means “six or more cards”. It means: “minimum, for the moment”. 2NT, on the contrary, shows a good half-balanced hand. And that's a logic bidding, not a convention. Because: - The replier could have 10-11 points (that’s the most frequent case of 2/1 reply). If the opener has 14 points (good 13 to 15), after 2NT the replier, with a tolerance for the opener’s suit (e.g. Jx), must bid 3NT. If the opener has 11-12 points, the replier must pass. How to differentiate the two cases? - If the replier has three cards help, he doesn’t need of six in opener’s hand. If the replier has two cards help, also with a 6-2 fit the 3NT contract is often better. A tail: I allow also 15 points for 2NT, not only 12-14; that’s another story.Paolo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted March 20, 2004 Report Share Posted March 20, 2004 2 NT should show decent hand, something like 13/14 count. I will rebid 2♠ with minimum hand, even if I only have 5.4♣ looks very much like Gerber to me, since you haven't set trump suit yet.Playing 2/1 you can just bid 3♠ after 2 NT, and go from there. In SAYC it's harder, and if 4 NT was Ace asking and pd showed 1 you can't bid 7 ♠ gambling that pd has and the right Ace and all the other good cards he need for the Grandslam to make. You might as well have bid 7 ♠ directly, that has about the same amount of science to it :) Mike ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted March 20, 2004 Report Share Posted March 20, 2004 I forgot to put the SAYC auction in there.1♠ - 2♥2♠/ NT - 3♦3♥ - 3♠4♠ - 4NT/ 5♣ and either way, you will end up in 6 of a major, making an overtrick. That's where you should be. Mike :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted March 21, 2004 Report Share Posted March 21, 2004 For what it is worth, I play that 1M - 2x; 2M is 6-cards with my one regular partner (about 20 years) and with another (about 1-1/2 years) we play that 2NT rebid shows an honour ("stopper") in each of the unbid suits (so 2M maybe just a 5-card suit). I've yet to notice anything significant in the two approaches (though there must be!). The one hand that I find is handled more easily by being able to rebid a 5-card major is 4=5-x-y where I'm 2-2 or 3-1 in the minors (3 in the minor partner didn't bid). If anybody asks, we (long-time partnership) used to play Flannery. We came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time. It occasionally worked well but much too often preempted our own auction and prevented us finding our "best" contract (we were too high to stop in a minor suit fit or we were too high period to begin with). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted March 21, 2004 Report Share Posted March 21, 2004 --------------------------------------------Hi Paolo! ------If you play 2NT rebid of 2/1 responder as forcing, rebid 2 of major of opener must be min hand with any distribution, include fit in 2/1 suit, because any hand can be described later on 2NT. If you play 2NT rebid of 2/1 as inv and NF, then rebid 2 of major of opener can show 6 cards, because major orientation of game bidding, but it is the matter of country traditions and players opinion. ----------------------------------------------Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglover Posted March 21, 2004 Report Share Posted March 21, 2004 This has actually been discussed in a different thread extensively. Ill find the link and post it here. But, as a short review, most of the major 2 over 1 systems as originally developed do not require a sixth card for a major rebid UNLESS responder's initial bid was 1 no trump. Thus, 2nt rebids by opener now guarantee stoppers for all unbid suits. Sure, some (many even) play that you need a sixth major card in all cases and therefore rebid 2nt on any 5332 (or whatever) because of that requiremet. Since you are in a 2 over 1 auction already many times the stoppers are there perforce. But, I personally think it's riskier than rebidding a 5 card suit with a minimum hand and keeping partner in the auction. If you play this way, then a third rebid of suit by opener now guarantees 6 pieces. (FWIW when I play SA i guarantee a sixth piece. This is because partner is not forced to take another bid if I rebid 2 major the way I play, so it needs to assure something else). PS.. I went looking of that old thread and couldn't find it... looked in both entire SAYC/2 over 1 discussion and in Advanced/expert.... think it may have gotten lost in transition to new software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 My impression of the 2M rebid after a 2/1 was that it generally shouldn't show a balanced 12-14 count. However, given that a rebid at the level shows a much better hand (in sayc certainly) and shows a violent distribution in 2/1, the 2M rebid describes a hand that is neither of these. Such as: S KQxxxH KxxD AC Qxxx If you open 1S, and get a 2D response, you can only rebid 2S, as 3C shows a different hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 I find the 7s bid without asking for the trump queen insulting.About 2NT in 2/1 depends on your agreements because there're many styles, for example I play that it shows doubleton in the 2/1 suit and stoppers in the remaining suits any strength. Others play that is either 12-14 or 18-19. And others play that it shows 5332 distribution of any strenght.In SAYC 2NT shows some extras as many posters pointed here, I found that treatment horrible but in sync with the whole system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGF_Flame Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 why didnt u bid 5h to ask for the Q of spade ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 This has actually been discussed in a different thread extensively. Ill find the link and post it here. But, as a short review, most of the major 2 over 1 systems as originally developed do not require a sixth card for a major rebid UNLESS responder's initial bid was 1 no trump. Thus, 2nt rebids by opener now guarantee stoppers for all unbid suits. Sure, some (many even) play that you need a sixth major card in all cases and therefore rebid 2nt on any 5332 (or whatever) because of that requiremet. Since you are in a 2 over 1 auction already many times the stoppers are there perforce. But, I personally think it's riskier than rebidding a 5 card suit with a minimum hand and keeping partner in the auction. If you play this way, then a third rebid of suit by opener now guarantees 6 pieces. (FWIW when I play SA i guarantee a sixth piece. This is because partner is not forced to take another bid if I rebid 2 major the way I play, so it needs to assure something else). PS.. I went looking of that old thread and couldn't find it... looked in both entire SAYC/2 over 1 discussion and in Advanced/expert.... think it may have gotten lost in transition to new software. ----------------------------------Hi Steve! Before to search between posts, scroll thread page at bottom and there you will find combo boxes: "last post date", descending order" and "the last 30 days". Pick up from last "from the beginning" and you will find all previous posts hidden by this option - if you know how many time I lost to understand that :unsure: . -------------------------------------------Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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