Balance decision at MPs

[whereagles]

Matchpoints, expert pard, intermediate field, V vs NV.

 

♠ AK6

♥ J93

♦ KT

♣ AT765

 

Pard RHO you LHO

pass 1♥ .. 1NT 2♥

pass pass ??

 

Lack of stopper doesn't seem to have comprimised this time. Now, do you feel you have you told your story or are you unwilling to sell out cheaply and try 3♣?

 

Note: pard's double of 2♥ would have been for take out.

[andy_h]

Given the auction, I would now pass even if it's MP's. I've told my story, and AT765 isn't worth for me to be bidding 3C on my own.

[karlson]

Partner couldn't make a takeout double with presumed short hearts and I have this piece of crap? Bidding seems mildly insane.

[neilkaz]

Hmm...MP's vul vs not... I didn't think my ♣ were good enough to overcall 2♣ initially so opted for 1NT with a control oriented 15 and half a stop.

 

I've told my story, and bidding 3♣ may go for 200 to 800. It also may push the opps to 3♥ which may go -1 noting PD should have a few HCP here.

 

However, it is much to risky to bid with this hand, IMHO

 

I don't care to try 2♠ either and if I double and PD bids 3♦ I suspect he'll have 5 of them, but...ouch.

 

PASS clearly for me.

[han]

Agree with clear pass.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

 

Given that p holds at most 2 hearts and did not

make a t/o means he is dead.

 

We are red vs green?

 

If not, i.e. we are green, and if you are sure, they dont

X you, go ahead, but I would say, I told my story.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: You have at best 15 mediocrite HCP, and mediocrite

is open for discussion.

[rogerclee]

I really don't like 1NT. Anyway given the auction pass is obvious.

[helene_t]

I can live with 1NT, J9x looks a little bit like a positional stop. Anyway, pass now.

[whereagles]

Marlowe: yes, we're red on white.

 

By the way, if you make a balancing double, pard has a scrambling 2NT with 44 minors available, so he won't just shoot at 3♦ if his diamonds are better than his clubs.

[kenrexford]

I really like 1NT a lot.

 

I pass this time, but I hope partner had a negative double available.

[kenrexford]

I really like 1NT a lot.

 

I pass this time, but I hope partner had a negative double available.

 

Actually, the more I think...

 

If partner did have a negative double available, I think he is 2-2 in the majors.

 

Change my vote -- 3♣ for me.

 

Unl;ess he did not have a negative double...

 

Did he have that oiption???

[Guest Jlall]

Actually, the more I think...

 

If partner did have a negative double available, I think he is 2-2 in the majors.

 

Change my vote -- 3♣ for me.

Lol, you make it sound like partner would always make a negative double. What if he just has a crappy hand and you are vulnerable so he chose to pass?

 

Seriously bidding anything vulnerable at MP is batshit crazy.

[jdonn]

I can't believe this problem is even here. *Poking eyes out with spork*

[effervesce]

I really like 1NT a lot.

 

I pass this time, but I hope partner had a negative double available.

 

Actually, the more I think...

 

If partner did have a negative double available, I think he is 2-2 in the majors.

 

Change my vote -- 3♣ for me.

 

Unl;ess he did not have a negative double...

 

Did he have that oiption???

Did the opponents have the option of 2♣ = heart support and spades? If they did, then partner won't be 2-2 in the majors.

[kenrexford]

Yeah, the colors looks bad. Didn't even check when I realized how many clubs we have. Maybe 3♣ is too much. It would clearly be worse r-v-r, but r-v-w I might get the 3♥ bump...

[whereagles]

Thx all. These were the hands (forgot the spots, sorry)

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sqxxhxxd8xxxcqxxx&w=sjtxhaqxdj9xxxcj9&e=sxxxxhktxxxdaqckx&s=sakxhj9xdktcat76x]399|300|Scoring: MP

Pass 1♥ . 1NT 2♥

Pass pass ??[/hv]

The reason I'm posting this is pard may not want to double 2♥ for take out if he has a mere 4-5 HCP (quite likely), even despite his heart shortness, because he might feel he's either too weak or has no 4-card spade. In that case you might want to try and bid 3♣ yourself to cater for that possibility.

 

In the actual hand both 2♥ and 3♣ will usually make, so it would be good to bid. Of course, you probably wouldn't want to bid it red at IMPs, but at matchpoints I thought there might be a case for 3♣. Well, not for most, at least.

[kenrexford]

Sure looked like nine clubs. Sometimes gut instinct works better than brains. LOL

[pclayton]

Before you totally dismiss bidding as 'batshit crazy', consider a few things:

 

1. Pard has a smattering of points since the opps aren't in, or invited game. 3-5 by my guess.

2. Pard would have bid 2♠ with 5. Pard might have neg x'd with 4, but thats not certain.

3. Pard has a maximum of 2 hearts.

4. Pard doesn't have 6 diamonds.

 

I'd say the most likely patterns for pard are 3=2=4=4, 3=1=(45), 4=1=(44 or 35). The worst we can expect is 4=2=(34).

 

3♣ is a logical move. It will rarely be down 2 and someone has to dbl it and beat it for it to be really wrong. Defending 2♥ looks like a 30% board at best. Why are we just rolling over here?

[Guest Jlall]

Before you totally dismiss bidding as 'batshit crazy', consider a few things:

 

1. Pard has a smattering of points since the opps aren't in, or invited game. 3-5 by my guess.

2. Pard would have bid 2♠ with 5. Pard might have neg x'd with 4, but thats not certain. 

3. Pard has a maximum of 2 hearts.

4. Pard doesn't have 6 diamonds.

 

I'd say the most likely patterns for pard are 3=2=4=4, 3=1=(45), 4=1=(44 or 35). The worst we can expect is 4=2=(34).

 

3♣ is a logical move. It will rarely be down 2 and someone has to dbl it and beat it for it to be really wrong. Defending 2♥ looks like a 30% board at best. Why are we just rolling over here?

Why would you not expect to go down 2? You have a piece of crap and if you don't catch 4 card support you could easily go down 2 since you also have a bunch of losers and a terrible suit.

 

Why would you not expect to get Xed? This is a simple auction to X since you guys are almost for sure out of line. And if they use reasoning like yours they are getting a bad board when you have bid 3C anyways.. etc etc. You are really underestimating the chances that a competent LHO just cracks you with a balanced 8 count when you bid this way, let alone trumps not breaking well.

 

Why would you expect partner to have 4 clubs? He doesn't even have to have 3 clubs (4252). You act like partner is routinely making negative Xs with 42?? and 2+ points, it's just not happening. He can very easily have 4 spades which is not a good thing for bidding 3C vul.

 

Why does partner have to have 3 points? He could easily just have 1 point or 2 points. The opps don't have to try for game at MP when you have overcalled 1N and they don't even have 25 HCP.

 

And lastly, WHY DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GETTING 30 % FOR DEFENDING 2H???? That is a completely arbitrary evaluation. I don't know about you but I expect to get well above average in general for defending a completely normal contract. I think I defend well. I don't see how 1N then 3C can be a standard sequence of bidding since it is utterly terrible. Even if 3C makes I bet I will usually get an above average score when I defend 2H, and I don't expect it to usually make. Bidding is a crapshoot and jeopardizes and ABOVE average expected score, not a below average one.

[pclayton]

Before you totally dismiss bidding as 'batshit crazy', consider a few things:

 

1. Pard has a smattering of points since the opps aren't in, or invited game. 3-5 by my guess.

2. Pard would have bid 2♠ with 5. Pard might have neg x'd with 4, but thats not certain. 

3. Pard has a maximum of 2 hearts.

4. Pard doesn't have 6 diamonds.

 

I'd say the most likely patterns for pard are 3=2=4=4, 3=1=(45), 4=1=(44 or 35). The worst we can expect is 4=2=(34).

 

3♣ is a logical move. It will rarely be down 2 and someone has to dbl it and beat it for it to be really wrong. Defending 2♥ looks like a 30% board at best. Why are we just rolling over here?

Why would you not expect to go down 2? You have a piece of crap and if you don't catch 4 card support you could easily go down 2 since you also have a bunch of losers and a terrible suit.

 

Why would you not expect to get Xed? This is a simple auction to X since you guys are almost for sure out of line. And if they use reasoning like yours they are getting a bad board when you have bid 3C anyways.. etc etc. You are really underestimating the chances that a competent LHO just cracks you with a balanced 8 count when you bid this way, let alone trumps not breaking well.

 

Why would you expect partner to have 4 clubs? He doesn't even have to have 3 clubs (4252). You act like partner is routinely making negative Xs with 42?? and 2+ points, it's just not happening. He can very easily have 4 spades which is not a good thing for bidding 3C vul.

 

Why does partner have to have 3 points? He could easily just have 1 point or 2 points. The opps don't have to try for game at MP when you have overcalled 1N and they don't even have 25 HCP.

 

And lastly, WHY DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GETTING 30 % FOR DEFENDING 2H???? That is a completely arbitrary evaluation. I don't know about you but I expect to get well above average in general for defending a completely normal contract. I think I defend well. I don't see how 1N then 3C can be a standard sequence of bidding since it is utterly terrible. Even if 3C makes I bet I will usually get an above average score when I defend 2H, and I don't expect it to usually make. Bidding is a crapshoot and jeopardizes and ABOVE average expected score, not a below average one.

I get soooo tired of answering posts like this. You go completely overboard on your views and have to get personal. You make statements like he doesn't have to have 3 points, when he could have 5, and he doesn't have to have 3 clubs, when he might have 4, or may have a singleton heart. We don't know wtf partner has, but we know the opponents have a good fit, and that when they have a fit, we usually have a fit.

 

Do you honestly think that everyone is overcalling 1N on our hand? I think plenty are overcalling 2♣ or even passing. Those that overcall 2♣ might be getting a raise here and they are in a lot better spot than us. And somehow we are in a plus position for defending a normal contract! Amazing stuff. The opponents have found an eight card major fit. And you expect to beat 2♥? With what, your good looks?

 

I expect a long response and things like I'm hopeless, etc.. You might be right, but frankly I'm more interested in your reasoning than your attitude.

[kenrexford]

I think, as well that auctions where the opponents complete the bidding (2♥) after a red-on-white 1NT overcall often feature a responder with a hand like he has.

[Guest Jlall]

Before you totally dismiss bidding as 'batshit crazy', consider a few things:

 

1. Pard has a smattering of points since the opps aren't in, or invited game. 3-5 by my guess.

2. Pard would have bid 2♠ with 5. Pard might have neg x'd with 4, but thats not certain. 

3. Pard has a maximum of 2 hearts.

4. Pard doesn't have 6 diamonds.

 

I'd say the most likely patterns for pard are 3=2=4=4, 3=1=(45), 4=1=(44 or 35). The worst we can expect is 4=2=(34).

 

3♣ is a logical move. It will rarely be down 2 and someone has to dbl it and beat it for it to be really wrong. Defending 2♥ looks like a 30% board at best. Why are we just rolling over here?

Why would you not expect to go down 2? You have a piece of crap and if you don't catch 4 card support you could easily go down 2 since you also have a bunch of losers and a terrible suit.

 

Why would you not expect to get Xed? This is a simple auction to X since you guys are almost for sure out of line. And if they use reasoning like yours they are getting a bad board when you have bid 3C anyways.. etc etc. You are really underestimating the chances that a competent LHO just cracks you with a balanced 8 count when you bid this way, let alone trumps not breaking well.

 

Why would you expect partner to have 4 clubs? He doesn't even have to have 3 clubs (4252). You act like partner is routinely making negative Xs with 42?? and 2+ points, it's just not happening. He can very easily have 4 spades which is not a good thing for bidding 3C vul.

 

Why does partner have to have 3 points? He could easily just have 1 point or 2 points. The opps don't have to try for game at MP when you have overcalled 1N and they don't even have 25 HCP.

 

And lastly, WHY DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GETTING 30 % FOR DEFENDING 2H???? That is a completely arbitrary evaluation. I don't know about you but I expect to get well above average in general for defending a completely normal contract. I think I defend well. I don't see how 1N then 3C can be a standard sequence of bidding since it is utterly terrible. Even if 3C makes I bet I will usually get an above average score when I defend 2H, and I don't expect it to usually make. Bidding is a crapshoot and jeopardizes and ABOVE average expected score, not a below average one.

I get soooo tired of answering posts like this. You go completely overboard on your views and have to get personal.

Where did I get personal? I never even said your name, or anything about you. I responded only to your post, with my bridge "reasoning." I pointed out where I disagreed with your post, and where the flaws in your logic were to me. Do you know the definition of personal?

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/personal

 

There you go.

 

Some examples of a personal response to your initial thread would have been:

 

"You suck at bridge."

"You are an idiot."

"Despite your best efforts to ever amount to anything at this game, you are still terrible. I find it sad that someone can spend so much time and effort on the game of bridge and still be so bad."

"You are a failure at life."

 

To you it is personal if someone, especially me, disagrees with you. You are insecure about your bridge (for good reason) and cannot handle it when someone who is better than you disagrees with everything you say and offers bridge "reasoning" to try to back it up. You do not have any interest in my reasoning unless it agrees with yours, and have no interest in trying to learn or get better. You only want to be defensive and prove that you are right. The fact is, I was not personal at all in my original post. But you're right, I cannot stand you or your attitude, let alone your bridge.

[xcurt]

Maybe I should just stay on the sidelines for this, but I was thinking about this hand for a few days. Two points:

 

1) The 1NT...3C sequence is just so dangerous because LHO knows that (a) we are limited and (B) we are semi-balanced or balanced, so he can crack us on many hands where we are outgunned, knowing that we have no extras and his slower stuff isn't all getting ruffed off.

 

2) Bidding 1NT instead of 2C created this problem , not because we're in danger of getting buried in NT on running hearts, but instead because we have misled partner about how many slow tricks in their suit we have. So partner looking at Hxx or so will be relucatant to bid over the most likely strain for enemy competition, which is not what we want with our texture.

 

I'm all for value bids and generally agree with making the value bid when that's one of my choices, but I'm starting to think that at matchpoints, the the better call is 2C. At IMPs I would just chalk -110 at both tables up to luck and hope to make it up with some +600's in 3NT. MPs, on a hand like this, there might be a huge difference between -100/-110 or +100/+110.

[pclayton]

Justin - I don't hate you and I'm sorry that you feel that way about me.

 

I do forget how young you are and how I shouldn't rile you up like that. Sorry about that.

[whereagles]

I just think we might have put ourselves in more trouble than a conservative bidder:

 

His bidding:

 

pass 1♥ pass 2♥

pass pass 3♣

 

He passes to 1♥ because of "no stopper" and "bad club suit". Now he's bidding 3♣ because "it's safe: opps have already limited themselves and found a fit, so we should have one as well."

 

So, by bidding 1NT and passing, there's a real chance we're losing to those players... lol.