What do you bid, now?

[Hanoi5]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=skqxxhakj9da7xxca]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Opponents have not intervened and so far it has gone:

 

1♣ - 1♦

2♣ - ???

 

If you say 2H or 2S your partner repeats clubs at the 3 level, if you ask for KC your partner gives 2 with the trump queen. Where do you head?

[kenrexford]

Ugly.

 

2♥ makes as much sense as anything. Partner bidding 3♣ does not help with the end position issue I expect -- how good are your clubs???

 

I imagine ending in 6♣ because I cannot get the info I desire. I also cannot get partner to ask the questions.

[kenrexford]

I'm assuming standard bidding. Otherwise, I would have responded 1♥ the first time and then 2♦ the second. But, whatever.

[jdonn]

Yeah it's tough. You might just assume that if partner bids clubs a third time (and later after blackwood shows KQ) that he has either KQJxxx or KQxxxxx. So I guess I'm saying in the problem as given I bid 7NT. Not 7♣, I think it's more likely that 7NT can make on a hand if the clubs aren't breaking (say AJx xx Qx KQJxxx for example has reasonable chances if clubs are 5-1) than that we have to play in a suit (I guess A xx xxx KQJxxxx would make me very sad in 7NT on a spade lead!), plus if they are the same it's still potentially a 2 imp difference.

[Echognome]

I guess A xx xxx KQJxxxx would make me very sad in 7NT on a spade lead!

Why? Just play ♠A, ♣A. Tank for about 20 minutes. Then call for the ♣K.

[ArtK78]

I would bid 2♥ over 2♣.

 

If partner then bids 3♣, and a key card inquiry shows two keys and the trump queen, I bid 7NT. The two keys and the trump Q account for 9 HCP. Clearly, partner has more than that. If the "more" consists of the ♣J (or a 7th club) and either the ♥Q or the ♠J, thirteen tricks are going to be easy as long as the clubs run. If the clubs don't run, there may still be some chances depending on what pard's "more" consists of.

[kenrexford]

I think stiff spade Ace is a very real possibility.

[pclayton]

Do people really bid 1♦ with this hand? I hate that style.

 

2♥ for now and will look forward to extricating ourselves from 4-3 diamond fits later.

[jdonn]

Do people really bid 1♦ with this hand? I hate that style.

 

2♥ for now and will look forward to extricating ourselves from 4-3 diamond fits later.

How is that any harder than extracting yourself from a 4-3 heart fit if you start with 1♥?

[pclayton]

Do people really bid 1♦ with this hand? I hate that style.

 

2♥ for now and will look forward to extricating ourselves from 4-3 diamond fits later.

How is that any harder than extracting yourself from a 4-3 heart fit if you start with 1♥?

Its pointless to go up the line with 4D, a 4 card major and a strong hand. I liken it to bidding 2C over 1D with 4 clubs and a 4 card major. Can you think of another auction where it makes sense to reverse with a 44?

 

If i started with 1H and then reversed into spades over 2C, would pard play me for 4 only hearts?

[Winstonm]

There is only 1 truly correct answer to this question and Ken already nailed it and the reasons - anyone bidding anything other than 6 clubs is simply guessing - not that 6 clubs is cold but it has the best chance to be a positive spot.

[jdonn]

There is only 1 truly correct answer to this question and Ken already nailed it and the reasons - anyone bidding anything other than 6 clubs is simply guessing - not that 6 clubs is cold but it has the best chance to be a positive spot.

Finally found one you can't pass, but you still managed the lowest road possible!

[jdonn]

Do people really bid 1♦ with this hand? I hate that style.

 

2♥ for now and will look forward to extricating ourselves from 4-3 diamond fits later.

How is that any harder than extracting yourself from a 4-3 heart fit if you start with 1♥?

Its pointless to go up the line with 4D, a 4 card major and a strong hand. I liken it to bidding 2C over 1D with 4 clubs and a 4 card major. Can you think of another auction where it makes sense to reverse with a 44?

 

If i started with 1H and then reversed into spades over 2C, would pard play me for 4 only hearts?

2♣ over 1♦ skips the other suits, 1♦ over 1♣ skips no suits.

[whereagles]

Do people really bid 1♦ with this hand? I hate that style.

With such a strong hand, it is correct to try for a 4-4 diamond fit. The only bad thing that can happen is if pard rebids... 2♣ :P

 

Anyway, 2♥ now and see what happens.

[hotShot]

We have time, so 2♥ now.

If partner has 12 HCP looking at my hand this has to mean he has 2 entries playing NT. So 6/7 NT seems in reach.

[han]

Agree with 1♦, 2♥ now, we have some room to investiage.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we end up in 7♣.

[kenrexford]

Do people really bid 1♦ with this hand? I hate that style.

 

2♥ for now and will look forward to extricating ourselves from 4-3 diamond fits later.

How is that any harder than extracting yourself from a 4-3 heart fit if you start with 1♥?

Its pointless to go up the line with 4D, a 4 card major and a strong hand. I liken it to bidding 2C over 1D with 4 clubs and a 4 card major. Can you think of another auction where it makes sense to reverse with a 44?

 

If i started with 1H and then reversed into spades over 2C, would pard play me for 4 only hearts?

2♣ over 1♦ skips the other suits, 1♦ over 1♣ skips no suits.

2♣ over 1♦, for many folks, also establishes a GF. 1♦ over 1♣ does not.

 

For this reason, I go systemically out of my way to respond 2♣ GF, using it as artificial because of the value of establishing a GF on subsequent auctions. Make this hand, for instance, the exact same hand with the minor reversed, and have partner open 1♦. If I bid 2♣, my way, Opener can allow us to establish a heart fit at the two-level with a GF in effect (bids 2♦, I accept 2♥), same with spades (bids 2♥, I accept 2♠), and even same with clubs (bids 2♠, I accept with 3♣). Having ruled out any of my four-card suits (3♣, 2NT, 3♦, etc.), I set diamond/NT as the focus. Always GF. Unambiguous, and fast.

 

Can't do that over 1♣-1♦. Technically, you can, but that's another issue...

[P_Marlowe]

4NT lets check KC, we will get all information we need.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Ugly.

 

2♥ makes as much sense as anything.  Partner bidding 3♣ does not help with the end position issue I expect -- how good are your clubs???

If you want to know more about the quality of the club suit just

ask, KC will tell you, 4NT is something simple / not sophisticated.

 

For that matter, 2H will quite often catch a 3D response, and this

means you will bid KC ask for diamonds.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Winstonm]

Anyone who believes Keycard for clubs or diamonds will help is deceiving themself - the critical card for 7 is not the K or Q but the J.

 

If partner's clubs are KQJxxx then 7 is most likely on. If partner's diamonds are QJx, then 7D may be on.

 

And if you bid 7 and partner has KQxxxx, then you are a jack off and get what you deserve. :)

[jdonn]

Anyone who believes Keycard for clubs or diamonds will help is deceiving themself - the critical card for 7 is not the K or Q but the J.

 

If partner's clubs are KQJxxx then 7 is most likely on.  If partner's diamonds are QJx, then 7D may be on. 

 

And if you bid 7 and partner has KQxxxx, then you are a jack off and get what you deserve.   :)

If you bid 2♥ and partner bids 3♣ then doesn't partner have better than KQxxxx (assuming blackwood later reveals the KQ)? There are even hands with like 8 clubs that bid 4♣ over the 2♥ bid. You are right that blackwood is not the answer. Going slowly so we can describe our hands is the answer. Or maybe partner is in a position to use blackwood himself later if we go slowly. Signing off in 6♣ now is one of the alltime truly lazy bids. If you make some forcing bids and nothing exciting happens, the 6♣ card will still be in your bidding box, it's not going anywhere.

 

BTW, I would want better than A7xx opposite QJx as a trump suit for my grands.

 

Second BTW, what makes you think you can commit the hand to clubs already? Partner can't have JTxxxx(x)?

[neilkaz]

Go slowly here to see what else PD can show you so you better know whether you can take 13 tricks.

[kenrexford]

Go slowly makes sense as a general rule, but the parameters of what we know so far offer little help, it seems.

 

We have started with a non-Walsh 1♦. OK. Now, we have bid some major, picking one for some reason of theory, probably hearts. Partner bids 3♣.

 

What now? Maybe bid 3♠? 3♦ and 3♥ would surely be natural, so 3♠ as some sort of punt action? So, what if we hear 3NT? If we want to use RKCB for clubs, we better mention them, so 4♣.

 

Great. So far, we have bid every suit, and partner has shown something. Now, we have a weak club focus. God help us if partner takes over. He will expect a spade control with club support, not a stiff.

 

So, we get lucky and heart some diamond cue or something.

 

It just seems that pussy-footing around gets us nothing except a possibility that we lose the ability to use RKCB in clubs, or partner takes over (bad idea), or somebody gets confused about what is happening.

 

I just don't see any real way around that problem. With clubs, you cannot even get into any sort of last train slam bidding, either. Evemn if you could, partner will probably look at his diamond secondaries (because of the brilliant 1♦ start).

 

So, can we rely on partner to have a seventh club or the Jack? Or, in another way of putting it, can be exclude KQxxxx and sufficiently unlikely?

 

I cannot imagine how. Partner will be known to have the KQ of clubs and the spade Ace. He needs one more card to open, and I might have the methods to find that nice heart Queen. That's 11. That's enough. So, give partner ♠Ax ♥Qx ♦xxx ♣KQ10xxx. Should he rebid 2NT? Maybe. But, what about ♠Axx ♥Q ♦Qxx ♣KQ10xxx. 3♦? 2♠?

 

If I don't have methods to check on the heart Queen, it seems worse. I'm not sure what that method will be, in a safe auction that I can control.

[jdonn]

Go slowly makes sense as a general rule, but the parameters of what we know so far offer little help, it seems.

 

We have started with a non-Walsh 1♦.  OK.  Now, we have bid some major, picking one for some reason of theory, probably hearts.  Partner bids 3♣.

 

What now?  Maybe bid 3♠?  3♦ and 3♥ would surely be natural, so 3♠ as some sort of punt action?  So, what if we hear 3NT?  If we want to use RKCB for clubs, we better mention them, so 4♣.

 

Great.  So far, we have bid every suit,

No we haven't. And agree with the auction so far, great start (through your 4♣ bid over 3♣).

 

and partner has shown something.  Now, we have a weak club focus.  God help us if partner takes over.  He will expect a spade control with club support, not a stiff.

If he is good enough to take over then you are almost sure to have a grand anyway. wtp?

 

So, we get lucky and heart some diamond cue or something.

Great! Keycard time! wtp!

 

It just seems that pussy-footing around gets us nothing except a possibility that we lose the ability to use RKCB in clubs, or partner takes over (bad idea), or somebody gets confused about what is happening. 

Now, for the first time in your life, on an auction that isn't even remotely complicated yet, you are worried about a misunderstanding? Where is the logic in this argument anyway. You are saying since we might not (and therefore might) be able to bid keycard in clubs by going slowly, we should jump to 6♣ right now.

 

I just don't see any real way around that problem.  With clubs, you cannot even get into any sort of last train slam bidding, either.  Even if you could, partner will probably look at his diamond secondaries (because of the brilliant 1♦ start).

Bidding slam without last train? My word!

 

So, can we rely on partner to have a seventh club or the Jack?  Or, in another way of putting it, can be exclude KQxxxx and sufficiently unlikely?

 

I cannot imagine how.  Partner will be known to have the KQ of clubs and the spade Ace.  He needs one more card to open, and I might have the methods to find that nice heart Queen.  That's 11.  That's enough.  So, give partner ♠Ax ♥Qx ♦xxx ♣KQ10xxx.  Should he rebid 2NT?  Maybe.  But, what about ♠Axx ♥Q ♦Qxx ♣KQ10xxx.  3♦?  2♠?

2NT on your first example. Whether 2♠ or 3♦ on your second he certainly won't bid 3♣. I think you are simply proving how well this auction works. Btw if partner makes a terrible 3♣ bid on either of those hands you reach 7NT which is over 50%.

 

If I don't have methods to check on the heart Queen, it seems worse.  I'm not sure what that method will be, in a safe auction that I can control.

Who says you need it? A 7th club. Or diamond king. Or spade break. Or heart finesse. Or squeeze. Oh yeah, or that heart queen after all.

[kenrexford]

One clarification, jdonn. I would use RKCB. I did not mean to suggest that I would not. However, I don't think that I would bid 4♣, as this is not calculated to help me. I would just blast 4♠ (out-of-focus major) after 3♣. As the answer would be two with, or 5♥, I have no space to ask any further question.

 

If I start with 4♣, I might be able to hear a diamond or heart cue, after which I can bid 4♠ and be in the same situation. The cue was neat, nice to hear, but meaningless.

 

If I bid 4♣ and partner asks questions, he will think KQxxxx is enough, errantly.

 

So, I seem stuck.

 

Now, maybe Opener should have KQJxxx or a seventh club for his 3♣ bid. If so, this is a no-brainer. I'm just not so sure that repeating clubs confirms a seventh club or three of the top four honors. I suppose that this is the money question. (If you cannot say 100% that it shows 7, then what about theory or the rest of the hand makes KQJxxx right for 3♣ but not KQ10xxx, KQ9xxx, or KQxxxx?)