Advancing a balancing double

[hrothgar]

IMPS

White v Red

 

You're playing like crap in a tournament when the following hand comes up

 

♠ KJ54

♥ 5

♦ AJ874

♣ K86

 

LHO deals and the auction starts

 

(2♥) - P - (3♥) - ???

 

Question 1

 

Do you take action (presumably double)?

 

Question 2

 

Assume that you decide to pass. The auction continues

 

(2♥) - P - (3♥) - P

(P) - X - (P) - ???

 

What's your call?

[Finch]

1. Yes, double

2. Why is this not a penalty double? Why would I do anythng other than pass?

[Guest Jlall]

You have to double with a hand like this or you will simply miss too many games and some partscores. You don't need much if you catch a good fit to make game.

[whereagles]

1. dbl, routine

2. 4S, same

[Guest Jlall]

2. Why is this not a penalty double? Why would I do anythng other than pass?

Because some people would like to bid this way with KQxx xxx Axxx Kx, and because you don't have a penalty X that often on this auction.

 

Not saying that's what X should be, but you asked!

[Finch]

2. Why is this not a penalty double?  Why would I do anythng other than pass?

Because some people would like to bid this way with KQxx xxx Axxx Kx, and because you don't have a penalty X that often on this auction.

 

Not saying that's what X should be, but you asked!

KQxx xxx Axxx Kx

surely partner only wants to double on that hand in case we forgot to act over 3H.

 

Now, saying that partner might like to bid this way with

 

Kxxxx - Kxxxx xxx

 

makes a lot more sense to me, but my heart shortage makes this unlikely.

 

Anyway I've had a penalty double on this auction a couple of times and I've never had this random weak NT with 3 low hearts that wants to act.

[whereagles]

Anyway I've had a penalty double on this auction a couple of times and I've never had this random weak NT with 3 low hearts that wants to act.

nag pard for not doubling in front of you :)

[helene_t]

More generally, when is a delayed dbl on a raise penalty? Can I assume that

(1♠)-p-([2♠)-p

(p)-x

is t/o while

(1♣)-p-([3♣)-p

(p)-x

is penalty? I.e. t/o at the 2-level and penalty at the 3-level?

[whereagles]

More generally, when is a delayed dbl on a raise penalty? Can I assume that

(1♠)-p-([2♠)-p

(p)-x

is t/o while

(1♣)-p-([3♣)-p

(p)-x

is penalty? I.e. t/o at the 2-level and penalty at the 3-level?

Actually, it just stroke me you're absolutely right. If one is to abide by Robson/Segal's book, the rules for delayed doubles are:

 

"Delayed doubles are for take-out of the second suit (penalty over the 1st suit), except when RHO has opened and pard took positive action in his turn."

 

In this case pard did NOT take positive action in his turn, so this is take-out of the 2nd suit and penalty of the first. Since there is no 2nd suit, the only interpretation left is "penalty of the first".

 

Therefore Frances was completely right: playing Robson/Segal, this is a penalty double!!!

[Guest Jlall]

KQxx xxx Axxx Kx

surely partner only wants to double on that hand in case we forgot to act over 3H.

No, there are plenty of hands that make game cold where you would not act over 3H (yes I realize OPs hand is a t/o X but it is overkill). You pretty much always want to be competing with that hand if the opps have 9 hearts and not a big majority of the HCP. I would not expect partner to have bid with Axxxx x KTxxx xx or something random like that. And it doesn't even have to be a game, it could just be a partscore hand where you want to compete.

[Guest Jlall]

More generally, when is a delayed dbl on a raise penalty? Can I assume that

(1♠)-p-([2♠)-p

(p)-x

is t/o while

(1♣)-p-([3♣)-p

(p)-x

is penalty? I.e. t/o at the 2-level and penalty at the 3-level?

Nobody plays these Xs as pen imo. But 1S p 1N p 2S X etc are played as penalty generally.

[helene_t]

Wow, is even

(1♣)-p-(2♣)-p

(p)-x

penalty? I would never have guessed that!

 

I think I recall one problem from the "Ladderpuzzel" (Dutch MSC) where

(1♥)-p-(2♥)-p

(p)-x

was described a t/o, minor-oriented, while 2♠ would be t/o with 4 spades (because a hand worth a balancing 2♠ here would have overcalled at first turn).

[Guest Jlall]

Wow, is even

(1♣)-p-(2♣)-p

(p)-x

penalty? I would never have guessed that!

 

I think I recall one problem from the "Ladderpuzzel" (Dutch MSC) where

(1♥)-p-(2♥)-p

(p)-x

was described a t/o, minor-oriented, while 2♠ would be t/o with 4 spades (because a hand worth a balancing 2♠ here would have overcalled at first turn).

In the netherlands how do they bid QJTxx xxxx Qxx x?

[helene_t]

I suppose they overcall 2♠ immediately if they are too old for 4♠ :) Btw partner has 15 points and a singleton hearts so he might have bid something.

 

No seriously, I can understand that

1♠-1NT

2♠

can get doubled for penalties since they could be in a 6-0 fit, but after responder have raised, playing 5-card majors, surely they must have a fit?

[Finch]

More generally, when is a delayed dbl on a raise penalty? Can I assume that

(1♠)-p-([2♠)-p

(p)-x

is t/o while

(1♣)-p-([3♣)-p

(p)-x

is penalty? I.e. t/o at the 2-level and penalty at the 3-level?

I don't think you can assume anything, these sequences are very murky.

My system file says that

 

- After a 1-level opening and a raise, double by second seat is take-out up to 3H, penalties above that.

 

- After a pre-empt and a raise, double by second seat is penalties

 

I'm not necessarily claiming this is best, because these sequences are actually pretty rare whatever the double means, just that at least by having an agreement we can double on some hands rather than none.

 

The other day we realised we didn't know how we played 1S - P - 1NT - P - 2S - x; as justin says this is 'traditionally' penalties but many other 'traditional' penalty doubles we play as take-out.

[whereagles]

Wow, is even

(1♣)-p-(2♣)-p

(p)-x

penalty? I would never have guessed that!

 

I think I recall one problem from the "Ladderpuzzel" (Dutch MSC) where

(1♥)-p-(2♥)-p

(p)-x

was described a t/o, minor-oriented, while 2♠ would be t/o with 4 spades (because a hand worth a balancing 2♠ here would have overcalled at first turn).

According to R/S, yes:

 

1♣ p 2♣ p

p .. X = THE REAL KQJT9 O'CLUBS

 

Of course, the RS definition can be perfected. I don't think it makes much sense to play all the sequences you've shown as penalty.

[david_c]

More generally, when is a delayed dbl on a raise penalty? Can I assume that

(1♠)-p-([2♠)-p

(p)-x

is t/o while

(1♣)-p-([3♣)-p

(p)-x

is penalty? I.e. t/o at the 2-level and penalty at the 3-level?

Nobody plays these Xs as t/o imo.

Er, Justin, could you please correct your typo before everyone gets thoroughly confused? :)

[helene_t]

Thanks David but it's too late, everyone except Frances is confused by now. Well I should only speak for myself I suppose.

[Guest Jlall]

fixed, sry, i don't sleep.