What does this auction mean?

[Guest Jlall]

1N p 2H p 2S p p 3D p p X

 

strong NT, transfers.

[benlessard]

optionnal. The opener should only pull with 2D and 3/4S. With xxx in diamonds a minimum hand and 4S i would also pull.

[P_Marlowe]

1N p 2H p 2S p p 3D p p X

 

strong NT, transfers.

Hi,

 

reformating to have a better understanding

 

1NT - (P) - 2H - (P)

2S.. - (P) - P.. - 3D

P.... - (P) - X

 

Penalty, showing a max. passed hand.

 

Opener can certainly bid 3H, if he happens to

hold 4 hearts, ... but most likely he would have

super accepted, so this option is out.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[655321]

For me this is non-penalty, so perhaps 5314 or similar. (Would 5323 want to bid? Would 5413 have bid Stayman instead of transferring?)    Perhaps 7-8 HCP. Thinks that defending 3♦ undoubled is unlikely to be our best spot.

Opener can pass, bid a new suit, bid 3 or 4 spades according to his hand.

 

I think opener's immediate double of 3♦ is penalties, but this would be very rare because responder may have a yarborough - for opener to double he would pretty much need to have 3♦ beaten in his own hand.

[rogerclee]

I reckon it should be cooperative.

 

I think pure penalty with a limited hand in front of the bidder is not useful enough in frequency.

[Guest Jlall]

Sorry but what does cooperative mean?

[P_Marlowe]

Sorry but what does cooperative mean?

"cooperative" is another word for "optional",

"cardshowing", "no clear direction", "partner

do something intelligent", "blametransfer".

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[marcD]

depends on vulnerabilities and form of game . MP x optionnal (more so if they are vul) as I need to protect my +110 ; teams t/o shapely hand

[Guest Jlall]

Sorry but what does cooperative mean?

"cooperative" is another word for "optional",

"cardshowing", "no clear direction", "partner

do something intelligent", "blametransfer".

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

So how many diamonds does it show? 1? 2? 3? 4?

[gnasher]

At matchpoints, it says "I think we were making 2♠." Opener is expected to pass with two spades, bid 3♠ with four (if he can have that many) and use his judgement with three.

 

At IMPs, it's similar, but more penalty-oriented. Opener would still pull with four spades, but rarely with three

 

That might be what is meant by "cooperative".

[P_Marlowe]

Sorry but what does cooperative mean?

"cooperative" is another word for "optional",

"cardshowing", "no clear direction", "partner

do something intelligent", "blametransfer".

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

So how many diamonds does it show? 1? 2? 3? 4?

..., please keep in mind, that I said X was penalty (*).

But to answer your question, at least 3.

If we have a fit in our major, partner can run, and

if he does not, than at least they dont play a 8 card fit.

And if one adds a max. hand, we may also start calling

the X penalty.

 

(*) I dont think, that playing X as cooperative makes a lot

of sense, because the guy, who Xed, denied a inv. hand

and does not know, if the opener holds a min or max.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Free]

Imo X should show 6-7hcp with a 5-3-1-4 distribution (or similar).

[whereagles]

1N p 2H p 2S p p 3D p p X

 

strong NT, transfers.

I have this defined as penalty, because I define our side's auction as "no better fit available" (and when such auctions happen, dbl = pen).

 

Penalty doesn't mean you got KQJT, but sure got points. Something like ♦Hxx and 7-8 hcp is enough.

[mikegill]

At matchpoints, my understanding is that it means "partner I have a maximum non-invite, please use your judgment as to whether we should play 3s or 3dX." I think opener pulls 100% with 4 spades, a majority of the time with 3, unless he has very good defense, and sits nearly all the time with 2. I don't think it specifies a # of diamonds because most of the time their diamond length is tied to your spade length, so partner going off of your fit in spades will -usually- be a reasonable guide as to whether or not to defend.

 

At IMPs, this is a little more complicated, since we aren't ever doubling them for -1, and thus can't really pass the X just because we don't have a spade fit. I think I agree that the X should be takeout, showing short (2 or fewer) diamonds and a maximum non-invite. There are two unbid suits that we could be playing in, and this also allows you to nail them when opener has a stack (although I actually play opener's X as penalty at the 3-level too, but surely most of the time he doesn't have it down in hand so can't X on his own). Plus, it's really hard for responder to X for penalty anyway, since he's under the diamonds, and he doesn't know the degree of spade fit.

[andy_h]

For me this is non-penalty, so perhaps 5314 or similar. (Would 5323 want to bid? Would 5413 have bid Stayman instead of transferring?)    Perhaps 7-8 HCP. Thinks that defending 3♦ undoubled is unlikely to be our best spot.

Opener can pass, bid a new suit, bid 3 or 4 spades according to his hand.

 

I think opener's immediate double of 3♦ is penalties, but this would be very rare because responder may have a yarborough - for opener to double he would pretty much need to have 3♦ beaten in his own hand.

I think I fit with this as well.

[helene_t]

Agree with BenLessard.I think two diamonds are enough.

[Trinidad]

Agree with Helene,

 

Rik

[jdonn]

I think 5323 7 count is perfect, but I have to admit I might do it with 1 even 3 diamonds, I mean if I want to compete with 5 spades there is no other way so what choice do I have? So I guess I'd say it's something between balanced and takeout.

[Winstonm]

I would think most players would describe this as a "do something intelligent" double, i.e., they hold too much to pass but no clear direction.

 

But I believe you are right that this is not much of an agreement.

 

I think we might have a reasonable definition if we simply refine the definition to mean this: I hold just shy of a game try and my cards are predominently in quick tricks. Something like Axxxx, xxx, xxx, Kx might be in order.

 

Maybe that is the key - a double hear says my hand holds 1 1/2 quick tricks for defensive purposes - do something intelligent with that information.

[pclayton]

ATxxx xxx Kxx xx is perfect

 

ATxxx xx xx Kxxx is OK

 

Axxxx Kxx x xxxx is take your medicine.

[OleBerg]

Sorry but what does cooperative mean?

"cooperative" is another word for "optional",

"cardshowing", "no clear direction", "partner

do something intelligent", "blametransfer".

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

So how many diamonds does it show? 1? 2? 3? 4?

Depends on how fast you double.

 

Best Regards

 

Ole Berg

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure what this means. But, at the table, I would mean this as "I want to bid 3♠, but I'm not going unilateral."

 

In other words, a sixth spade but some defense. Diamond contribution? Not a stiff.

[Finch]

At imps I play this as penalties, usually 4 diamonds but sometimes a good three card holding.

 

At mps this is more "cooperative" i.e. Hx or xxx or Hxx in diamonds, and our side has the majority of the high cards. I don't mind passing out 3D and taking it 1 or 2 off against 2H making at imps but at mps I have to tell opener that it was our hand and it's more likely I have general values than a 'large penalty' penalty.

[mike777]

All too complicated.

 

 

3d is penalty.........opener did not super accept.

 

I do not think responder has 6 good spades and 2 lousy diamonds.

 

 

coop, max...opt.......etc etc.......who knows...I pass as opener.

[Apollo81]

At MPs, this is a hand that expected a plus from 2♠ and expects further action to be better than selling to 3♦. Opener sits with 2 spades and pulls with 4 spades. With 3 spades use judgment.

 

At IMPs I'd say this double needs to be for hands where there could be a large swing, so it makes sense to either play it as pure penalty (7 count with 3-4 good diamonds) or a hand with a singleton diamond that could still bid a perfecta game or be a double partscore swing.